sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

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Nathan Van Gheem Nathan Van Gheem
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sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

Hi All,

Alright, I know the reason why we're doing this and I've read https://dev.plone.org/plone/ticket/9987 and https://dev.plone.org/plone/changeset/36314 , but I am just going to nag on this again to make sure this is the direction we'd like to go here. 

I've had many users express dislike in this and if it is something that most people are going to be customizing straight away when they install a plone 4 site, it seems sensible to have the default behavior be to show all the levels.

Am I the only one who thinks this way?


-Nathan

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Martin Aspeli Martin Aspeli
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

On 1 May 2010 13:43, Nathan Van Gheem <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi All,
> Alright, I know the reason why we're doing this and I've
> read https://dev.plone.org/plone/ticket/9987 and https://dev.plone.org/plone/changeset/36314 ,
> but I am just going to nag on this again to make sure this is the direction
> we'd like to go here.
> I've had many users express dislike in this and if it is something that most
> people are going to be customizing straight away when they install a plone 4
> site, it seems sensible to have the default behavior be to show all the
> levels.
> Am I the only one who thinks this way?

What do you dislike? That they're shown always (which seems to be what
r36314 does, which I'm +lots to), or that they're hidden in level 1 +
2 (which imho is insane)?

Martin

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Nathan Van Gheem Nathan Van Gheem
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

What do you dislike? That they're shown always (which seems to be what
r36314 does, which I'm +lots to), or that they're hidden in level 1 +
2 (which imho is insane)?
Hah, well I'm mistaken at the state of this then. My thoughts mirror yours. Carry on. :)

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 4:29 AM, Martin Aspeli <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 1 May 2010 13:43, Nathan Van Gheem <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi All,
> Alright, I know the reason why we're doing this and I've
> read https://dev.plone.org/plone/ticket/9987 and https://dev.plone.org/plone/changeset/36314 ,
> but I am just going to nag on this again to make sure this is the direction
> we'd like to go here.
> I've had many users express dislike in this and if it is something that most
> people are going to be customizing straight away when they install a plone 4
> site, it seems sensible to have the default behavior be to show all the
> levels.
> Am I the only one who thinks this way?

What do you dislike? That they're shown always (which seems to be what
r36314 does, which I'm +lots to), or that they're hidden in level 1 +
2 (which imho is insane)?

Martin


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David Glick (GW) David Glick (GW)
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

On 5/1/10 2:43 AM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
What do you dislike? That they're shown always (which seems to be what
r36314 does, which I'm +lots to), or that they're hidden in level 1 +
2 (which imho is insane)?
Hah, well I'm mistaken at the state of this then. My thoughts mirror yours. Carry on. :)

If I'm understanding correctly, both of you are objecting to the current state (as of Alex's latest changes a couple days ago) which hides level 1 and 2.

After playing around with it a bit, I also strongly dislike the choice to hide some levels of the breadcrumbs.  It makes the site quite hard to navigate if you turn off the navigation portlet or auto-generation of tabs, and it is misleading to people who have gotten used to looking at one place (the breadcrumbs) to see where they are in the site.

I'm sure Alex will respond with "it's only 2 lines of CSS," but the fact is it's much easier to figure out how to hide something you don't want than it is to make something appear that you don't know exists.  So I agree that showing all levels of the breadcrumbs would be a saner default.

David

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Eric Steele (esteele) Eric Steele (esteele)
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

On May 1, 2010, at 12:26 PM, David Glick wrote:
On 5/1/10 2:43 AM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
What do you dislike? That they're shown always (which seems to be what
r36314 does, which I'm +lots to), or that they're hidden in level 1 +
2 (which imho is insane)?
Hah, well I'm mistaken at the state of this then. My thoughts mirror yours. Carry on. :)

If I'm understanding correctly, both of you are objecting to the current state (as of Alex's latest changes a couple days ago) which hides level 1 and 2.

After playing around with it a bit, I also strongly dislike the choice to hide some levels of the breadcrumbs.  It makes the site quite hard to navigate if you turn off the navigation portlet or auto-generation of tabs, and it is misleading to people who have gotten used to looking at one place (the breadcrumbs) to see where they are in the site.

I'm sure Alex will respond with "it's only 2 lines of CSS," but the fact is it's much easier to figure out how to hide something you don't want than it is to make something appear that you don't know exists.  So I agree that showing all levels of the breadcrumbs would be a saner default.

David

We've been having some intense offline debate over this.

Highlights are thus:
* Existing behavior shows redundant information at top levels
* Change was not discussed and improperly implemented by hiding information through CSS
* Looks ugly using stock behavior

I've asked that it be reverted to the stock behavior and PLIP'ed as a potential change for 4.1. We can debate the merits/detriments of hiding certain levels then and make sure it's customizable through something other than CSS.

Eric


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Alexander Limi Alexander Limi
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

I'm on my way to CMS Expo in Chicago, so I don't have a lot of time to debate this right here and now.

To illustrate the sheer level of redundancy I'm trying to avoid, here's a collection of screenshots showing the differences between the Plone 3 and Sunburst breadcrumbs:
http://img.skitch.com/20100502-r1idk12xhtxdh2ruj34eajaxjj.png

I'll let Eric make the final call on this, and PLIP something for 4.1 to fix the current approach. Having this amount of redundancy in our UI is suboptimal and confusing to new users.

In general, I'm not a fan of breadcrumbs when we ship with the navtree on by default, we should ship with one or the other enabled by default (most likely the tree), and allow people to pick the one(s) they prefer.

Tempest-in-a-teapot-ly yours,

--
Alexander Limi · http://limi.net


On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Eric Steele <[hidden email]> wrote:
On May 1, 2010, at 12:26 PM, David Glick wrote:
On 5/1/10 2:43 AM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
What do you dislike? That they're shown always (which seems to be what
r36314 does, which I'm +lots to), or that they're hidden in level 1 +
2 (which imho is insane)?
Hah, well I'm mistaken at the state of this then. My thoughts mirror yours. Carry on. :)

If I'm understanding correctly, both of you are objecting to the current state (as of Alex's latest changes a couple days ago) which hides level 1 and 2.

After playing around with it a bit, I also strongly dislike the choice to hide some levels of the breadcrumbs.  It makes the site quite hard to navigate if you turn off the navigation portlet or auto-generation of tabs, and it is misleading to people who have gotten used to looking at one place (the breadcrumbs) to see where they are in the site.

I'm sure Alex will respond with "it's only 2 lines of CSS," but the fact is it's much easier to figure out how to hide something you don't want than it is to make something appear that you don't know exists.  So I agree that showing all levels of the breadcrumbs would be a saner default.

David

We've been having some intense offline debate over this.

Highlights are thus:
* Existing behavior shows redundant information at top levels
* Change was not discussed and improperly implemented by hiding information through CSS
* Looks ugly using stock behavior

I've asked that it be reverted to the stock behavior and PLIP'ed as a potential change for 4.1. We can debate the merits/detriments of hiding certain levels then and make sure it's customizable through something other than CSS.

Eric


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Alexander Limi · http://limi.net

Martin Aspeli Martin Aspeli
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

On 3 May 2010 05:41, Alexander Limi <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm on my way to CMS Expo in Chicago, so I don't have a lot of time to
> debate this right here and now.
>
> To illustrate the sheer level of redundancy I'm trying to avoid, here's a
> collection of screenshots showing the differences between the Plone 3 and
> Sunburst breadcrumbs:
> http://img.skitch.com/20100502-r1idk12xhtxdh2ruj34eajaxjj.png
>
> I'll let Eric make the final call on this, and PLIP something for 4.1 to fix
> the current approach. Having this amount of redundancy in our UI is
> suboptimal and confusing to new users.
>
> In general, I'm not a fan of breadcrumbs when we ship with the navtree on by
> default, we should ship with one or the other enabled by default (most
> likely the tree), and allow people to pick the one(s) they prefer.

I think the most important point here is that we should either have
breadcrumbs or not. Having them come and go makes the design "move",
and invites "where the hell did that come from" type questions. Like
it or not, breadcrumbs are one of those things people have gotten used
to working in a certain way.

I'm +0 on having some kind of knob for people to turn them on or off.
I'm personally not all that opposed to navigation redundancy, though,
so long as it doesn't get in the way of actual content. If we don't
have a control panel setting for this (which has its own overhead), I
think the breadcrumbs should be on always.

Martin

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Lennart Regebro-2 Lennart Regebro-2
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

it's redundant, but practical. And although redundancy in code is bad,
in a UI it can be good. Otherwise I'm fully with Martin on this. I
think the breadcrumb should be on, fully, by default. If you want it
to go away, you can hide the viewlet. But, yeah, sure, if someone
wants to make a control panel setting for that, it would be OK.

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Diego Municio Diego Municio
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

I also think that breadcrumbs should be on, fully, by default.

According WCAG 2.0 (priority AA):
"More than one way is available to locate a Web page within a set of Web pages except where the Web Page is the result of, or a step in, a process."
http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/quickref/#qr-navigation-mechanisms-mult-loc

Also, if you want to avoid redundancy, this is WCAG 2.0 recommendation (Accessibility Guidelines) about that (priority AAA):

For a breadcrumb trail that does include the current location:

- Check that all elements except for the current location are implemented as links.
- Check that the current location is not implemented as a link.Hope it helps

Hope it helps

2010/5/3 Lennart Regebro <[hidden email]>
it's redundant, but practical. And although redundancy in code is bad,
in a UI it can be good. Otherwise I'm fully with Martin on this. I
think the breadcrumb should be on, fully, by default. If you want it
to go away, you can hide the viewlet. But, yeah, sure, if someone
wants to make a control panel setting for that, it would be OK.

--
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http://regebro.wordpress.com/
+33 661 58 14 64

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Eric Steele (esteele) Eric Steele (esteele)
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

In reply to this post by Martin Aspeli
On May 2, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Martin Aspeli wrote:

> On 3 May 2010 05:41, Alexander Limi <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I'm on my way to CMS Expo in Chicago, so I don't have a lot of time to
>> debate this right here and now.
>>
>> To illustrate the sheer level of redundancy I'm trying to avoid, here's a
>> collection of screenshots showing the differences between the Plone 3 and
>> Sunburst breadcrumbs:
>> http://img.skitch.com/20100502-r1idk12xhtxdh2ruj34eajaxjj.png
>>
>> I'll let Eric make the final call on this, and PLIP something for 4.1 to fix
>> the current approach. Having this amount of redundancy in our UI is
>> suboptimal and confusing to new users.
>>
>> In general, I'm not a fan of breadcrumbs when we ship with the navtree on by
>> default, we should ship with one or the other enabled by default (most
>> likely the tree), and allow people to pick the one(s) they prefer.
>
> I think the most important point here is that we should either have
> breadcrumbs or not. Having them come and go makes the design "move",
> and invites "where the hell did that come from" type questions. Like
> it or not, breadcrumbs are one of those things people have gotten used
> to working in a certain way.
>
> I'm +0 on having some kind of knob for people to turn them on or off.
> I'm personally not all that opposed to navigation redundancy, though,
> so long as it doesn't get in the way of actual content. If we don't
> have a control panel setting for this (which has its own overhead), I
> think the breadcrumbs should be on always.
>
> Martin


Alright, we're way past the point of discussion here. This was an obviously controversial change for several reasons. I've asked Alex to revert the breadcrumbs to their Plone 3 behavior and he's complied. If this is something he wants Plone to do, he'll submit a PLIP for 4.1 and the framework team will lead a constructive debate about it at that point.  The fact of the matter is thus: controversial changes need to go through our established process. The same rule applies to implementing features through "two lines of CSS" as it does to two lines of Python, otherwise our process means nothing.

I've spent a ridiculous amount of time moderating this issue over the past three weeks. At this point we should all be focused on wrapping up 4.0. Let's move on.

Eric
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Andreas Zeidler Andreas Zeidler
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

In reply to this post by Diego Municio
On 03.05.10 12:44, Diego Municio wrote:
> I also think that breadcrumbs should be on, fully, by default.

+1, and fwiw, more knowledgeable people seem to think the same:
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/breadcrumbs.html

cheers,


andi

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Rok Garbas Rok Garbas
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

2010/5/3 Andreas Zeidler <[hidden email]>:
> On 03.05.10 12:44, Diego Municio wrote:
>> I also think that breadcrumbs should be on, fully, by default.
>
> +1, and fwiw, more knowledgeable people seem to think the same:
> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/breadcrumbs.html
>
> cheers,
>

i share the same opinion. fully on by default.



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Ricardo Alves-2 Ricardo Alves-2
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

In reply to this post by Alexander Limi
Alexander Limi wrote:
> I'm on my way to CMS Expo in Chicago, so I don't have a lot of time to
> debate this right here and now.
>
> To illustrate the sheer level of redundancy I'm trying to avoid,
> here's a collection of screenshots showing the differences between the
> Plone 3 and Sunburst breadcrumbs:
> http://img.skitch.com/20100502-r1idk12xhtxdh2ruj34eajaxjj.png
>

I agree that for some of these situations it makes sense to remove the
breadcrumbs (e.g. Home), but the idea of removing any redundant
information seems dangerous to me. The purpose of breadcrumbs is to tell
the user exactly where he is and how to go up/back. The absence of some
redundant information, as the the current page's title, may lead to some
confusion. For example, in your last example, for a user that just lands
on that page, it doesn't seem clear to me how to go to the immediate
upper level.

Although, I guess this depends on the website, the way content is
structured and how we want people to navigate. So it should at least be
configurable.

> I'll let Eric make the final call on this, and PLIP something for 4.1
> to fix the current approach. Having this amount of redundancy in our
> UI is suboptimal and confusing to new users.

A PLIP for this would be great, but IMHO the behavior should be
configurable. Also, that would be an opportunity to make other
breadcrumbs features configurable (as the separator character/image,
crop long titles, etc...), so we don't need to override this viewlet
over and over. I intended to submit a PLIP for some of these, so I'll be
happy to help on it.


Just my two cents :)


Ricardo

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Alexander Limi Alexander Limi
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Ricardo Alves <[hidden email]> wrote:
A PLIP for this would be great, but IMHO the behavior should be
configurable. Also, that would be an opportunity to make other
breadcrumbs features configurable (as the separator character/image,
crop long titles, etc...), so we don't need to override this viewlet
over and over. I intended to submit a PLIP for some of these, so I'll be
happy to help on it.

Sounds good, let's try to get this into 4.1, then. Thanks for the offer to help out.

And just for reference: since it shipped halfway baked in 4.0 beta3, I'll style it a bit differently if we're going to show it the way we are now — obviously the current styling is stuck somewhere in between the two approaches. I'll send out some screenshots when I have it ready before the RC.

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Eric Steele (esteele) Eric Steele (esteele)
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

On May 3, 2010, at 10:13 PM, Alexander Limi wrote:
> And just for reference: since it shipped halfway baked in 4.0 beta3, I'll style it a bit differently if we're going to show it the way we are now — obviously the current styling is stuck somewhere in between the two approaches. I'll send out some screenshots when I have it ready before the RC.

It shipped fully-baked (or maybe unbaked... I'm bad with metaphor) in b3. Breadcrumbs behave in the same manner as 3.x.

Eric
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 9:36 PM, Eric Steele <[hidden email]> wrote:
On May 3, 2010, at 10:13 PM, Alexander Limi wrote:
> And just for reference: since it shipped halfway baked in 4.0 beta3, I'll style it a bit differently if we're going to show it the way we are now — obviously the current styling is stuck somewhere in between the two approaches. I'll send out some screenshots when I have it ready before the RC.

It shipped fully-baked (or maybe unbaked... I'm bad with metaphor) in b3. Breadcrumbs behave in the same manner as 3.x.

Right, I'm talking about the *visual* style, ie. background color + margins, etc (which are a bit off). I'll run it by you when I have it ready.

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Andreas Zeidler Andreas Zeidler
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

In reply to this post by Alexander Limi
On 04.05.10 04:13, Alexander Limi wrote:

> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Ricardo Alves wrote:
>
>     A PLIP for this would be great, but IMHO the behavior should be
>     configurable. Also, that would be an opportunity to make other
>     breadcrumbs features configurable (as the separator character/image,
>     crop long titles, etc...), so we don't need to override this viewlet
>     over and over. I intended to submit a PLIP for some of these, so I'll be
>     happy to help on it.
>
>
> Sounds good, let's try to get this into 4.1, then. Thanks for the offer
> to help out.

while reading up i just thought maybe it'd make sense to use ajax to
semi-hide less interesting elements and also help with line wrapping,
and surely the first search turned up:

http://www.comparenetworks.com/developers/jqueryplugins/jbreadcrumb.html

afaics searching within the page and seo etc all still works as
expected, so perhaps it's worth a look!?

cheers,


andi

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Nathan Van Gheem Nathan Van Gheem
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Re: sunburst theme and breadcrumbs

while reading up i just thought maybe it'd make sense to use ajax to
semi-hide less interesting elements and also help with line wrapping,
and surely the first search turned up:

http://www.comparenetworks.com/developers/jqueryplugins/jbreadcrumb.html

afaics searching within the page and seo etc all still works as
expected, so perhaps it's worth a look!?
+1 

With element way down the tree this sort of things can help immensely; however, it might also need a PLIP.

I wouldn't mind seeing the "You are here" text go away.



On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 3:07 AM, Andreas Zeidler <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 04.05.10 04:13, Alexander Limi wrote:
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Ricardo Alves wrote:
>
>     A PLIP for this would be great, but IMHO the behavior should be
>     configurable. Also, that would be an opportunity to make other
>     breadcrumbs features configurable (as the separator character/image,
>     crop long titles, etc...), so we don't need to override this viewlet
>     over and over. I intended to submit a PLIP for some of these, so I'll be
>     happy to help on it.
>
>
> Sounds good, let's try to get this into 4.1, then. Thanks for the offer
> to help out.

while reading up i just thought maybe it'd make sense to use ajax to
semi-hide less interesting elements and also help with line wrapping,
and surely the first search turned up:

http://www.comparenetworks.com/developers/jqueryplugins/jbreadcrumb.html

afaics searching within the page and seo etc all still works as
expected, so perhaps it's worth a look!?

cheers,


andi

--
zeidler it consulting - http://zitc.de/ - [hidden email]
friedelstraße 31 - 12047 berlin - telefon +49 30 25563779
pgp key at http://zitc.de/pgp - http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net/
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