What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

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Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
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What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

Like Érico gave a talk on last year. But more.

Imagine downloading a university distribution from plone.org, installing it and then having a local saas service which allows anyone with an email address to create one of 4 kinds of sites complete with theme , plugins and default content showing how the site works.

Anyone can build and upload a distribution to plone.org by freezing a current site and clicking upload.

Plone.org can also provide links to cloud services if they want to try the same thing online.

We don't need themes, we need whole quick start sites people can modify.


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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

@djay

http://sourceforge.net/p/plone/mailman/message/33621954/

Cheers,

Sven

On 21/03/15 04:35, Dylan Jay wrote:

Like Érico gave a talk on last year. But more.

Imagine downloading a university distribution from plone.org, installing it and then having a local saas service which allows anyone with an email address to create one of 4 kinds of sites complete with theme , plugins and default content showing how the site works.

Anyone can build and upload a distribution to plone.org by freezing a current site and clicking upload.

Plone.org can also provide links to cloud services if they want to try the same thing online.

We don't need themes, we need whole quick start sites people can modify.



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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

Awesome!!! 

    Kim



On Mar 21, 2015, at 3:57 AM, sven <[hidden email]> wrote:

@djay

http://sourceforge.net/p/plone/mailman/message/33621954/

Cheers,

Sven

On 21/03/15 04:35, Dylan Jay wrote:

Like Érico gave a talk on last year. But more.

Imagine downloading a university distribution from plone.org, installing it and then having a local saas service which allows anyone with an email address to create one of 4 kinds of sites complete with theme , plugins and default content showing how the site works.

Anyone can build and upload a distribution to plone.org by freezing a current site and clicking upload.

Plone.org can also provide links to cloud services if they want to try the same thing online.

We don't need themes, we need whole quick start sites people can modify.



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Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

In reply to this post by sven-3
The building of images/installers is great, awesome work, but I think there are two other missing bits - default content/config and the ability to create these default sites easily without admin access.
If you look at what wix or squarespace or WordPress themes on theme forest they are much more than what we call a theme. They are a whole site in a box. A book store. A restaurant. A government pet registry. We need GS + diazo + content + plugins all in one file. No ones first experience of plone should ever see a blank site again.
I think we should also look at Erics plans for ttw views so site specific logic could be included in a theme https://github.com/ebrehault/collective.ttw/blob/master/README.md

I realise it sounds like a recipe to lose business by helping people to not need integrators or but I believe plone is still the most powerful system for ttw customimization and that is really the only unique selling proposition it has left. If we appeal to those who want to get something up quickly rather than those who want big complex half apps half sites then we will have a growing community rather than a shrinking one.
A rising tide lifts all boats.

> On 21 Mar 2015, at 3:57 pm, sven <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> @djay
>
> http://sourceforge.net/p/plone/mailman/message/33621954/
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sven
>
> On 21/03/15 04:35, Dylan Jay wrote:
>> Like Érico gave a talk on last year. But more.
>>
>> Imagine downloading a university distribution from plone.org, installing it and then having a local saas service which allows anyone with an email address to create one of 4 kinds of sites complete with theme , plugins and default content showing how the site works.
>>
>> Anyone can build and upload a distribution to plone.org by freezing a current site and clicking upload.
>>
>> Plone.org can also provide links to cloud services if they want to try the same thing online.
>>
>> We don't need themes, we need whole quick start sites people can modify.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
>> conversation now.
>> http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Plone-developers mailing list
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/_______________________________________________
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acsr acsr
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Re: Plone distributions that catch

I fully agree with you both.

We saw excellent examples from other CMSses at CMS Garden since 2013 (e.g. Typo3) and their awful systems looked nice to the audience at first sight.

Our excellent volunteers were able compensate that for the garden to some point, but imagine the use case if no one of us is out there.

The first step to a "sale" is to catch by emotion and bind value to the initial impression!

Thats one of the (quite easy) challenges that will help to grow Plone and make it survive better than without.

I agree a GSOC volunteer could work on the automation Sven mentions. But we need professional communication guiding to avoid to end up with a nerdy useless experience. If you need a coach volunteering for that I am in.

cu in Sorrento

-- Armin

Am 21.03.2015 um 21:22 schrieb Dylan Jay <[hidden email]>:

> The building of images/installers is great, awesome work, but I think there are two other missing bits - default content/config and the ability to create these default sites easily without admin access.
> If you look at what wix or squarespace or WordPress themes on theme forest they are much more than what we call a theme. They are a whole site in a box. A book store. A restaurant. A government pet registry. We need GS + diazo + content + plugins all in one file. No ones first experience of plone should ever see a blank site again.
> I think we should also look at Erics plans for ttw views so site specific logic could be included in a theme https://github.com/ebrehault/collective.ttw/blob/master/README.md
>
> I realise it sounds like a recipe to lose business by helping people to not need integrators or but I believe plone is still the most powerful system for ttw customimization and that is really the only unique selling proposition it has left. If we appeal to those who want to get something up quickly rather than those who want big complex half apps half sites then we will have a growing community rather than a shrinking one.
> A rising tide lifts all boats.
>
>> On 21 Mar 2015, at 3:57 pm, sven <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> @djay
>>
>> http://sourceforge.net/p/plone/mailman/message/33621954/
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Sven
>>
>> On 21/03/15 04:35, Dylan Jay wrote:
>>> Like Érico gave a talk on last year. But more.
>>>
>>> Imagine downloading a university distribution from plone.org, installing it and then having a local saas service which allows anyone with an email address to create one of 4 kinds of sites complete with theme , plugins and default content showing how the site works.
>>>
>>> Anyone can build and upload a distribution to plone.org by freezing a current site and clicking upload.
>>>
>>> Plone.org can also provide links to cloud services if they want to try the same thing online.
>>>
>>> We don't need themes, we need whole quick start sites people can modify.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
>>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
>>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
>>> conversation now.
>>> http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Plone-developers mailing list
>>>
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/_______________________________________________
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>
>
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Matthew Wilkes-3 Matthew Wilkes-3
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

In reply to this post by Dylan Jay
On 2015-03-21 03:35, Dylan Jay wrote:
> Anyone can build and upload a distribution to plone.org
> <http://plone.org> by freezing a current site and clicking upload.

This is a great idea, but *way* outside the abilities of most GSoC
students. I'm sure we'd jump at a qualified student proposing this but
it would most likely have to be an existing community member that
happened to be a student.

If you want to write up a full description of the idea in the same
format as the ideas list I'll certainly add it.

 > We don't need themes, we need whole quick start sites people can modify.

We have very, very few examples of plone.app.theming themes, especially
good quality ones. Currently the only diazo theme people are exposed to
is the bootstrap theme, which is not at all a good start.

Matt


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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

In reply to this post by Dylan Jay
Dylan Jay wrote:
> I think we should also look at Erics plans for ttw views so site specific logic could be included in a theme https://github.com/ebrehault/collective.ttw/blob/master/README.md

Just to remind you that the first part of Eric's proposal (views) was
implemented years ago by Martin as zpt-fragments.

We have been using it and I've recently updated the old branch to be
compatible with 1.2.x branch, but have not had time to do that for the
current master yet.

https://github.com/plone/plone.app.theming/compare/1.2.x...1.2.x-
zpt-fragments

Cheers,
Asko

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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
In reply to this post by Dylan Jay
Dylan Jay wrote
I realise it sounds like a recipe to lose business by helping people to not need integrators or but I believe plone is still the most powerful system for ttw customimization and that is really the only unique selling proposition it has left. If we appeal to those who want to get something up quickly rather than those who want big complex half apps half sites then we will have a growing community rather than a shrinking one.
A rising tide lifts all boats.
WISE WORDS...
Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

In reply to this post by Matthew Wilkes-3

> On 22 Mar 2015, at 8:46 pm, Matthew Wilkes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 2015-03-21 03:35, Dylan Jay wrote:
>> Anyone can build and upload a distribution to plone.org
>> <http://plone.org> by freezing a current site and clicking upload.
>
> This is a great idea, but *way* outside the abilities of most GSoC
> students. I'm sure we'd jump at a qualified student proposing this but
> it would most likely have to be an existing community member that
> happened to be a student.
>
> If you want to write up a full description of the idea in the same
> format as the ideas list I'll certainly add it.
>
>> We don't need themes, we need whole quick start sites people can modify.
>
> We have very, very few examples of plone.app.theming themes, especially
> good quality ones. Currently the only diazo theme people are exposed to
> is the bootstrap theme, which is not at all a good start.

I guess what I'm saying is that while a theme pack would be ok to have, perhaps we would get more value if we rethink what a prepackaged theme is first.
Perhaps the reason out of the box themes have failed in the past with plone is that they aren't providing enough out of the box experience to be useful. And if we redefine a theme as a frozen site potentially including TTW code too then perhaps that's what is missing?
I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just empty vessel themes that are likely not to get used.


>
> Matt
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers


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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions


24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:

at is missing? 
I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e

Just some brainstorming:

Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites.
SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see
Plone site
and 
PloneDemo1
PloneDemo2
etc

As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?)

Espen
David Bain-5 David Bain-5
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

One of my frustrations with Wordpress in the past is functionality being tied to themes, I consider this a weakness, not a strength. In fact, it is my understanding that the best wordpress developers discourage the practice, or to put it another way, key functionality in a them is something done in wordpress, found to be wanting and now actively discouraged.

Anchoring key functionality to a theme sets us up for troublesome migration issues (at least when a customer wants to change the look of their site). Upgrading the look of the site becomes a production rather than simply changing the theme.

I'm definitely in favour of distributions, but they need to be theme independent, so that an end user doesn't have to cross their fingers when changing themes for their new Plone based "daily deals distribution", "education distribution" or "mini-reddit-clone distribution".

My suggestion is that an audit of the most commonly used widgets and views be done, then themers would be encouraged to account for these in their theme. The closest thing we have to that now is the /test_rendering view which shows common widgets. A good summer of code project towards this end would be to fill out a more comprehensive reference page for themers.

This approach is used for wordpress themes on themeforest in the form of shortcodes pages.
See screenshot below:

Inline image 1


-


David Bain, RHCSA
Owner at Alteroo
(876) 475-5824


On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:30 AM, espen <[hidden email]> wrote:

24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:

at is missing? 
I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e

Just some brainstorming:

Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites.
SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see
Plone site
and 
PloneDemo1
PloneDemo2
etc

As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?)

Espen


View this message in context: Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions
Sent from the Core Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

I can't see plone changing quickly such that plone doesn't have smart generic plugins. I'm not suggesting that themes don't use plugins but they come preconfigured and include demo content.

Like this http://themes.crunchpress.com/?theme=book-store-wp

This idea that themes are 100% generic and can be used on any kind of site is too idealistic I think. It sets the bar far to high and also makes the themes too bland.

The default content and configuration is installed on first install maybe vs GS. You would likely have upgrades to the diazo or plugins but you would have to ship upgrade profiles to the GS if you wanted to ship a theme that included upgrades to configuration. Most likely you wouldn't.
The idea is to help people get started quickly so they have to make so many choices on how to get a useful site for their purpose quickly.

> On 24 Mar 2015, at 9:47 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One of my frustrations with Wordpress in the past is functionality being tied to themes, I consider this a weakness, not a strength. In fact, it is my understanding that the best wordpress developers discourage the practice, or to put it another way, key functionality in a them is something done in wordpress, found to be wanting and now actively discouraged.
>
> Anchoring key functionality to a theme sets us up for troublesome migration issues (at least when a customer wants to change the look of their site). Upgrading the look of the site becomes a production rather than simply changing the theme.
>
> I'm definitely in favour of distributions, but they need to be theme independent, so that an end user doesn't have to cross their fingers when changing themes for their new Plone based "daily deals distribution", "education distribution" or "mini-reddit-clone distribution".
>
> My suggestion is that an audit of the most commonly used widgets and views be done, then themers would be encouraged to account for these in their theme. The closest thing we have to that now is the /test_rendering view which shows common widgets. A good summer of code project towards this end would be to fill out a more comprehensive reference page for themers.
>
> This approach is used for wordpress themes on themeforest in the form of shortcodes pages.
> See screenshot below:
>
> <image.png>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> David Bain, RHCSA
> Owner at Alteroo
> [hidden email]
> www.alteroo.com
> (876) 475-5824
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:30 AM, espen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:
>
>> at is missing?
>> I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e
>
> Just some brainstorming:
>
> Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites.
> SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see
> Plone site
> and
> PloneDemo1
> PloneDemo2
> etc
>
> As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?)
>
> Espen
>
> View this message in context: Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions
> Sent from the Core Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

Dylan,
I think we're on the same page with the idea, I'm advocating for a different name for the the approach like "distribution" or "stack". I don't think it should be called a "theme". When we switched to Diazo I had a hard time explaining to newbies the distinction between old school theming and the new Diazo way and it meant they had to learn to distinguish between the two types of themes. I don't think it would be helpful to add a new layer of concern to the same name. This is why I'd suggest another name but the same concept with GS etc...


-


David Bain, RHCSA
Owner at Alteroo
(876) 475-5824


On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 5:30 AM, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:
I can't see plone changing quickly such that plone doesn't have smart generic plugins. I'm not suggesting that themes don't use plugins but they come preconfigured and include demo content.

Like this http://themes.crunchpress.com/?theme=book-store-wp

This idea that themes are 100% generic and can be used on any kind of site is too idealistic I think. It sets the bar far to high and also makes the themes too bland.

The default content and configuration is installed on first install maybe vs GS. You would likely have upgrades to the diazo or plugins but you would have to ship upgrade profiles to the GS if you wanted to ship a theme that included upgrades to configuration. Most likely you wouldn't.
The idea is to help people get started quickly so they have to make so many choices on how to get a useful site for their purpose quickly.

> On 24 Mar 2015, at 9:47 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One of my frustrations with Wordpress in the past is functionality being tied to themes, I consider this a weakness, not a strength. In fact, it is my understanding that the best wordpress developers discourage the practice, or to put it another way, key functionality in a them is something done in wordpress, found to be wanting and now actively discouraged.
>
> Anchoring key functionality to a theme sets us up for troublesome migration issues (at least when a customer wants to change the look of their site). Upgrading the look of the site becomes a production rather than simply changing the theme.
>
> I'm definitely in favour of distributions, but they need to be theme independent, so that an end user doesn't have to cross their fingers when changing themes for their new Plone based "daily deals distribution", "education distribution" or "mini-reddit-clone distribution".
>
> My suggestion is that an audit of the most commonly used widgets and views be done, then themers would be encouraged to account for these in their theme. The closest thing we have to that now is the /test_rendering view which shows common widgets. A good summer of code project towards this end would be to fill out a more comprehensive reference page for themers.
>
> This approach is used for wordpress themes on themeforest in the form of shortcodes pages.
> See screenshot below:
>
> <image.png>
>
>
> -
>
>
>
> David Bain, RHCSA
> Owner at Alteroo
> [hidden email]
> www.alteroo.com
> <a href="tel:%28876%29%20475-5824" value="+18764755824">(876) 475-5824
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:30 AM, espen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:
>
>> at is missing?
>> I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e
>
> Just some brainstorming:
>
> Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites.
> SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see
> Plone site
> and
> PloneDemo1
> PloneDemo2
> etc
>
> As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?)
>
> Espen
>
> View this message in context: Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions
> Sent from the Core Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> _______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/_______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
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Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

On 25 Mar 2015, at 6:11 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dylan,
> I think we're on the same page with the idea, I'm advocating for a different name for the the approach like "distribution" or "stack". I don't think it should be called a "theme". When we switched to Diazo I had a hard time explaining to newbies the distinction between old school theming and the new Diazo way and it meant they had to learn to distinguish between the two types of themes. I don't think it would be helpful to add a new layer of concern to the same name. This is why I'd suggest another name but the same concept with GS etc...

Well you can call it site profile or whatever you want but if the rest of the CMS world includes more than the "skin" in their themes then I think we are just making life hard.
What I'm suggesting is that a theme is still a theme zip that can optionally include initial starter content, GS, plugin requirements and some site specific code (should that be needed). That means its possible to ship generic themes with no starter content or GS if you want. It's should also be possible to install a theme and ignore the GS and default content and just use the design part (assuming it was designed to be generic enough).I think it would muddy the water to invent a new word.

I'm also suggesting that a distribution is defined as a prepacked set of such themes (probably with the default content), along with an out of the box multisite install that lets users signup, pick a theme and have a ready to go site even without being the admin of the site. Then they could install it on their organisation server and let people create sites as much as they want.
So distribution is not just 1 theme, but can be many themes. It's not just a blank slate that leaves you wondering what to do do next after install or what this thing can do.


>
>
> -
>
>
>
> David Bain, RHCSA
> Owner at Alteroo
> [hidden email]
> www.alteroo.com
> (876) 475-5824
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 5:30 AM, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I can't see plone changing quickly such that plone doesn't have smart generic plugins. I'm not suggesting that themes don't use plugins but they come preconfigured and include demo content.
>
> Like this http://themes.crunchpress.com/?theme=book-store-wp
>
> This idea that themes are 100% generic and can be used on any kind of site is too idealistic I think. It sets the bar far to high and also makes the themes too bland.
>
> The default content and configuration is installed on first install maybe vs GS. You would likely have upgrades to the diazo or plugins but you would have to ship upgrade profiles to the GS if you wanted to ship a theme that included upgrades to configuration. Most likely you wouldn't.
> The idea is to help people get started quickly so they have to make so many choices on how to get a useful site for their purpose quickly.
>
> > On 24 Mar 2015, at 9:47 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > One of my frustrations with Wordpress in the past is functionality being tied to themes, I consider this a weakness, not a strength. In fact, it is my understanding that the best wordpress developers discourage the practice, or to put it another way, key functionality in a them is something done in wordpress, found to be wanting and now actively discouraged.
> >
> > Anchoring key functionality to a theme sets us up for troublesome migration issues (at least when a customer wants to change the look of their site). Upgrading the look of the site becomes a production rather than simply changing the theme.
> >
> > I'm definitely in favour of distributions, but they need to be theme independent, so that an end user doesn't have to cross their fingers when changing themes for their new Plone based "daily deals distribution", "education distribution" or "mini-reddit-clone distribution".
> >
> > My suggestion is that an audit of the most commonly used widgets and views be done, then themers would be encouraged to account for these in their theme. The closest thing we have to that now is the /test_rendering view which shows common widgets. A good summer of code project towards this end would be to fill out a more comprehensive reference page for themers.
> >
> > This approach is used for wordpress themes on themeforest in the form of shortcodes pages.
> > See screenshot below:
> >
> > <image.png>
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> >
> >
> > David Bain, RHCSA
> > Owner at Alteroo
> > [hidden email]
> > www.alteroo.com
> > (876) 475-5824
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:30 AM, espen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > 24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> at is missing?
> >> I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e
> >
> > Just some brainstorming:
> >
> > Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites.
> > SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see
> > Plone site
> > and
> > PloneDemo1
> > PloneDemo2
> > etc
> >
> > As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?)
> >
> > Espen
> >
> > View this message in context: Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions
> > Sent from the Core Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
> > by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
> > things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
> > news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> > conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Plone-developers mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
> > by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
> > things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
> > news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> > conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/_______________________________________________
> > Plone-developers mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
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David Bain-5 David Bain-5
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

So in summary we'd need to do the following:

1. Validate that people expect themes to be more than just the look
If this is generally true then we go with the name otherwise we agree on a more appropriate term.
2. Implement

Where 2 isn't necessarily dependent on 1 as the name is for "marketing" and communication purposes.



-


David Bain, RHCSA
Owner at Alteroo
(876) 475-5824


On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:25 AM, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 Mar 2015, at 6:11 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dylan,
> I think we're on the same page with the idea, I'm advocating for a different name for the the approach like "distribution" or "stack". I don't think it should be called a "theme". When we switched to Diazo I had a hard time explaining to newbies the distinction between old school theming and the new Diazo way and it meant they had to learn to distinguish between the two types of themes. I don't think it would be helpful to add a new layer of concern to the same name. This is why I'd suggest another name but the same concept with GS etc...

Well you can call it site profile or whatever you want but if the rest of the CMS world includes more than the "skin" in their themes then I think we are just making life hard.
What I'm suggesting is that a theme is still a theme zip that can optionally include initial starter content, GS, plugin requirements and some site specific code (should that be needed). That means its possible to ship generic themes with no starter content or GS if you want. It's should also be possible to install a theme and ignore the GS and default content and just use the design part (assuming it was designed to be generic enough).I think it would muddy the water to invent a new word.

I'm also suggesting that a distribution is defined as a prepacked set of such themes (probably with the default content), along with an out of the box multisite install that lets users signup, pick a theme and have a ready to go site even without being the admin of the site. Then they could install it on their organisation server and let people create sites as much as they want.
So distribution is not just 1 theme, but can be many themes. It's not just a blank slate that leaves you wondering what to do do next after install or what this thing can do.


>
>
> -
>
>
>
> David Bain, RHCSA
> Owner at Alteroo
> [hidden email]
> www.alteroo.com
> <a href="tel:%28876%29%20475-5824" value="+18764755824">(876) 475-5824
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 5:30 AM, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I can't see plone changing quickly such that plone doesn't have smart generic plugins. I'm not suggesting that themes don't use plugins but they come preconfigured and include demo content.
>
> Like this http://themes.crunchpress.com/?theme=book-store-wp
>
> This idea that themes are 100% generic and can be used on any kind of site is too idealistic I think. It sets the bar far to high and also makes the themes too bland.
>
> The default content and configuration is installed on first install maybe vs GS. You would likely have upgrades to the diazo or plugins but you would have to ship upgrade profiles to the GS if you wanted to ship a theme that included upgrades to configuration. Most likely you wouldn't.
> The idea is to help people get started quickly so they have to make so many choices on how to get a useful site for their purpose quickly.
>
> > On 24 Mar 2015, at 9:47 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > One of my frustrations with Wordpress in the past is functionality being tied to themes, I consider this a weakness, not a strength. In fact, it is my understanding that the best wordpress developers discourage the practice, or to put it another way, key functionality in a them is something done in wordpress, found to be wanting and now actively discouraged.
> >
> > Anchoring key functionality to a theme sets us up for troublesome migration issues (at least when a customer wants to change the look of their site). Upgrading the look of the site becomes a production rather than simply changing the theme.
> >
> > I'm definitely in favour of distributions, but they need to be theme independent, so that an end user doesn't have to cross their fingers when changing themes for their new Plone based "daily deals distribution", "education distribution" or "mini-reddit-clone distribution".
> >
> > My suggestion is that an audit of the most commonly used widgets and views be done, then themers would be encouraged to account for these in their theme. The closest thing we have to that now is the /test_rendering view which shows common widgets. A good summer of code project towards this end would be to fill out a more comprehensive reference page for themers.
> >
> > This approach is used for wordpress themes on themeforest in the form of shortcodes pages.
> > See screenshot below:
> >
> > <image.png>
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> >
> >
> > David Bain, RHCSA
> > Owner at Alteroo
> > [hidden email]
> > www.alteroo.com
> > <a href="tel:%28876%29%20475-5824" value="+18764755824">(876) 475-5824
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:30 AM, espen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > 24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> at is missing?
> >> I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e
> >
> > Just some brainstorming:
> >
> > Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites.
> > SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see
> > Plone site
> > and
> > PloneDemo1
> > PloneDemo2
> > etc
> >
> > As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?)
> >
> > Espen
> >
> > View this message in context: Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions
> > Sent from the Core Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
> > by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
> > things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
> > news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> > conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Plone-developers mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
> > by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
> > things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
> > news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> > conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/_______________________________________________
> > Plone-developers mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

http://cms.about.com/od/drupal-glossary/g/What-Is-A-Cms-theme.htm
Shows both.

http://cms.about.com/od/drupal-distributions/g/What-Is-A-Drupal-Distribution.htm
Seems to indicate default content and plugins for a single kind of site plus rebranding is what they call a distribution.

However I see our ability to do multisite out of the box a competitive advantage. So I think a distribution should be a set of related kinds of sites that can be created rather than just one. Which either means you need another name like site profile or just say that themes can optionally come with setup. Given wp is the most popular cms in the world, that's what I'd opt for. Why overload people with trying to teach them how we think. A theme can have dependencies in terms of plugins and setup if it wants. Or not. You can push a button to install those after you activate a theme. Or not.

On 25 Mar 2015 18:39, "David Bain" <[hidden email]> wrote:
So in summary we'd need to do the following:

1. Validate that people expect themes to be more than just the look
If this is generally true then we go with the name otherwise we agree on a more appropriate term.
2. Implement

Where 2 isn't necessarily dependent on 1 as the name is for "marketing" and communication purposes.



-


David Bain, RHCSA
Owner at Alteroo
(876) 475-5824


On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 6:25 AM, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 25 Mar 2015, at 6:11 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dylan,
> I think we're on the same page with the idea, I'm advocating for a different name for the the approach like "distribution" or "stack". I don't think it should be called a "theme". When we switched to Diazo I had a hard time explaining to newbies the distinction between old school theming and the new Diazo way and it meant they had to learn to distinguish between the two types of themes. I don't think it would be helpful to add a new layer of concern to the same name. This is why I'd suggest another name but the same concept with GS etc...

Well you can call it site profile or whatever you want but if the rest of the CMS world includes more than the "skin" in their themes then I think we are just making life hard.
What I'm suggesting is that a theme is still a theme zip that can optionally include initial starter content, GS, plugin requirements and some site specific code (should that be needed). That means its possible to ship generic themes with no starter content or GS if you want. It's should also be possible to install a theme and ignore the GS and default content and just use the design part (assuming it was designed to be generic enough).I think it would muddy the water to invent a new word.

I'm also suggesting that a distribution is defined as a prepacked set of such themes (probably with the default content), along with an out of the box multisite install that lets users signup, pick a theme and have a ready to go site even without being the admin of the site. Then they could install it on their organisation server and let people create sites as much as they want.
So distribution is not just 1 theme, but can be many themes. It's not just a blank slate that leaves you wondering what to do do next after install or what this thing can do.


>
>
> -
>
>
>
> David Bain, RHCSA
> Owner at Alteroo
> [hidden email]
> www.alteroo.com
> <a href="tel:%28876%29%20475-5824" value="+18764755824" target="_blank" class="">(876) 475-5824
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 5:30 AM, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I can't see plone changing quickly such that plone doesn't have smart generic plugins. I'm not suggesting that themes don't use plugins but they come preconfigured and include demo content.
>
> Like this http://themes.crunchpress.com/?theme=book-store-wp
>
> This idea that themes are 100% generic and can be used on any kind of site is too idealistic I think. It sets the bar far to high and also makes the themes too bland.
>
> The default content and configuration is installed on first install maybe vs GS. You would likely have upgrades to the diazo or plugins but you would have to ship upgrade profiles to the GS if you wanted to ship a theme that included upgrades to configuration. Most likely you wouldn't.
> The idea is to help people get started quickly so they have to make so many choices on how to get a useful site for their purpose quickly.
>
> > On 24 Mar 2015, at 9:47 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > One of my frustrations with Wordpress in the past is functionality being tied to themes, I consider this a weakness, not a strength. In fact, it is my understanding that the best wordpress developers discourage the practice, or to put it another way, key functionality in a them is something done in wordpress, found to be wanting and now actively discouraged.
> >
> > Anchoring key functionality to a theme sets us up for troublesome migration issues (at least when a customer wants to change the look of their site). Upgrading the look of the site becomes a production rather than simply changing the theme.
> >
> > I'm definitely in favour of distributions, but they need to be theme independent, so that an end user doesn't have to cross their fingers when changing themes for their new Plone based "daily deals distribution", "education distribution" or "mini-reddit-clone distribution".
> >
> > My suggestion is that an audit of the most commonly used widgets and views be done, then themers would be encouraged to account for these in their theme. The closest thing we have to that now is the /test_rendering view which shows common widgets. A good summer of code project towards this end would be to fill out a more comprehensive reference page for themers.
> >
> > This approach is used for wordpress themes on themeforest in the form of shortcodes pages.
> > See screenshot below:
> >
> > <image.png>
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> >
> >
> > David Bain, RHCSA
> > Owner at Alteroo
> > [hidden email]
> > www.alteroo.com
> > <a href="tel:%28876%29%20475-5824" value="+18764755824" target="_blank" class="">(876) 475-5824
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:30 AM, espen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > 24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> at is missing?
> >> I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e
> >
> > Just some brainstorming:
> >
> > Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites.
> > SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see
> > Plone site
> > and
> > PloneDemo1
> > PloneDemo2
> > etc
> >
> > As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?)
> >
> > Espen
> >
> > View this message in context: Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions
> > Sent from the Core Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
> > by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
> > things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
> > news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> > conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Plone-developers mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
> > by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
> > things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
> > news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
> > conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/_______________________________________________
> > Plone-developers mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>
>



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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

In reply to this post by Dylan Jay

25. mars 2015 kl. 11:30 skrev Dylan Jay <[hidden email]>:

> I can't see plone changing quickly such that plone doesn't have smart generic plugins. I'm not suggesting that themes don't use plugins but they come preconfigured and include demo content.
>
> Like this http://themes.crunchpress.com/?theme=book-store-wp
>
It would be so cool to have something like this for Plone.
If we focus on diazo themes, it should  be doable,
Oe problem, though, is how to add the content
And also, how to edit it ?

Maybe it could be done with collectve cover, and/or diazo rules


Espen


> This idea that themes are 100% generic and can be used on any kind of site is too idealistic I think. It sets the bar far to high and also makes the themes too bland.
>
> The default content and configuration is installed on first install maybe vs GS. You would likely have upgrades to the diazo or plugins but you would have to ship upgrade profiles to the GS if you wanted to ship a theme that included upgrades to configuration. Most likely you wouldn't.
> The idea is to help people get started quickly so they have to make so many choices on how to get a useful site for their purpose quickly.
>
>> On 24 Mar 2015, at 9:47 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> One of my frustrations with Wordpress in the past is functionality being tied to themes, I consider this a weakness, not a strength. In fact, it is my understanding that the best wordpress developers discourage the practice, or to put it another way, key functionality in a them is something done in wordpress, found to be wanting and now actively discouraged.
>>
>> Anchoring key functionality to a theme sets us up for troublesome migration issues (at least when a customer wants to change the look of their site). Upgrading the look of the site becomes a production rather than simply changing the theme.
>>
>> I'm definitely in favour of distributions, but they need to be theme independent, so that an end user doesn't have to cross their fingers when changing themes for their new Plone based "daily deals distribution", "education distribution" or "mini-reddit-clone distribution".
>>
>> My suggestion is that an audit of the most commonly used widgets and views be done, then themers would be encouraged to account for these in their theme. The closest thing we have to that now is the /test_rendering view which shows common widgets. A good summer of code project towards this end would be to fill out a more comprehensive reference page for themers.
>>
>> This approach is used for wordpress themes on themeforest in the form of shortcodes pages.
>> See screenshot below:
>>
>> <image.png>
>>
>>
>> -
>>
>>
>>
>> David Bain, RHCSA
>> Owner at Alteroo
>> [hidden email]
>> www.alteroo.com
>> (876) 475-5824
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:30 AM, espen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> 24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> at is missing?
>>> I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e
>>
>> Just some brainstorming:
>>
>> Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites.
>> SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see
>> Plone site
>> and
>> PloneDemo1
>> PloneDemo2
>> etc
>>
>> As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?)
>>
>> Espen
>>
>> View this message in context: Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions
>> Sent from the Core Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Plone-developers mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/_______________________________________________
>> Plone-developers mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>
>


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by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions


> On 27 Mar 2015, at 4:25 pm, Espen Moe-Nilssen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> 25. mars 2015 kl. 11:30 skrev Dylan Jay <[hidden email]>:
>
>> I can't see plone changing quickly such that plone doesn't have smart generic plugins. I'm not suggesting that themes don't use plugins but they come preconfigured and include demo content.
>>
>> Like this http://themes.crunchpress.com/?theme=book-store-wp
>>
> It would be so cool to have something like this for Plone.
> If we focus on diazo themes, it should  be doable,
> Oe problem, though, is how to add the content
> And also, how to edit it ?

I figure the simplest way is to use GS but store it in portal_resources inside the theme in a profiles folder.
You can have a control panel to snapshot the current site and that could include filters to only include the "right" kinds of GS steps. There is GS for creating content using plone.rfc822 now but not for saving content to GS I believe. The format kind of sucks and it only handles certain content types so is not universal. Either we improve it or perhaps put jsonify into the core and use that from GS or a combination of both.

So as a theme creator you might
1. create a prototype site with the same content.
2. Setup the GS filters to strip out things like users or mailhost settings
3. develop your theme TTW
4. got to theming control panel and snapshot the site. review the XML in the theme editor.
5. click a publish button to push your theme to plone.org (or where ever is configured as your theme repo).

As a theme installer you might
1. browse the set of available themes inside theming control panel available on plone.org (or configured theme repo)
2. click install
3. downloads and activates it.
4. asks if you want to install default content and configuration. Gives a summary of what it will install. (maybe you can opt out of some?). Include warnings on what will be overwritten.
5. click install. done.

Most of that I think is doable in a sprint or GSOC.

>
> Maybe it could be done with collectve cover, and/or diazo rules
>
>
> Espen
>
>
>> This idea that themes are 100% generic and can be used on any kind of site is too idealistic I think. It sets the bar far to high and also makes the themes too bland.
>>
>> The default content and configuration is installed on first install maybe vs GS. You would likely have upgrades to the diazo or plugins but you would have to ship upgrade profiles to the GS if you wanted to ship a theme that included upgrades to configuration. Most likely you wouldn't.
>> The idea is to help people get started quickly so they have to make so many choices on how to get a useful site for their purpose quickly.
>>
>>> On 24 Mar 2015, at 9:47 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> One of my frustrations with Wordpress in the past is functionality being tied to themes, I consider this a weakness, not a strength. In fact, it is my understanding that the best wordpress developers discourage the practice, or to put it another way, key functionality in a them is something done in wordpress, found to be wanting and now actively discouraged.
>>>
>>> Anchoring key functionality to a theme sets us up for troublesome migration issues (at least when a customer wants to change the look of their site). Upgrading the look of the site becomes a production rather than simply changing the theme.
>>>
>>> I'm definitely in favour of distributions, but they need to be theme independent, so that an end user doesn't have to cross their fingers when changing themes for their new Plone based "daily deals distribution", "education distribution" or "mini-reddit-clone distribution".
>>>
>>> My suggestion is that an audit of the most commonly used widgets and views be done, then themers would be encouraged to account for these in their theme. The closest thing we have to that now is the /test_rendering view which shows common widgets. A good summer of code project towards this end would be to fill out a more comprehensive reference page for themers.
>>>
>>> This approach is used for wordpress themes on themeforest in the form of shortcodes pages.
>>> See screenshot below:
>>>
>>> <image.png>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> David Bain, RHCSA
>>> Owner at Alteroo
>>> [hidden email]
>>> www.alteroo.com
>>> (876) 475-5824
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:30 AM, espen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> 24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>> at is missing?
>>>> I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e
>>>
>>> Just some brainstorming:
>>>
>>> Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites.
>>> SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see
>>> Plone site
>>> and
>>> PloneDemo1
>>> PloneDemo2
>>> etc
>>>
>>> As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?)
>>>
>>> Espen
>>>
>>> View this message in context: Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions
>>> Sent from the Core Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
>>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
>>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
>>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Plone-developers mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
>>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
>>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
>>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/_______________________________________________
>>> Plone-developers mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>>
>>
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions


> On 27 Mar 2015, at 4:42 pm, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 27 Mar 2015, at 4:25 pm, Espen Moe-Nilssen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> 25. mars 2015 kl. 11:30 skrev Dylan Jay <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> I can't see plone changing quickly such that plone doesn't have smart generic plugins. I'm not suggesting that themes don't use plugins but they come preconfigured and include demo content.
>>>
>>> Like this http://themes.crunchpress.com/?theme=book-store-wp
>>>
>> It would be so cool to have something like this for Plone.
>> If we focus on diazo themes, it should  be doable,
>> Oe problem, though, is how to add the content
>> And also, how to edit it ?
>
> I figure the simplest way is to use GS but store it in portal_resources inside the theme in a profiles folder.
> You can have a control panel to snapshot the current site and that could include filters to only include the "right" kinds of GS steps. There is GS for creating content using plone.rfc822 now but not for saving content to GS I believe. The format kind of sucks and it only handles certain content types so is not universal. Either we improve it or perhaps put jsonify into the core and use that from GS or a combination of both.
>
> So as a theme creator you might
> 1. create a prototype site with the same content.
> 2. Setup the GS filters to strip out things like users or mailhost settings
> 3. develop your theme TTW
> 4. got to theming control panel and snapshot the site. review the XML in the theme editor.
> 5. click a publish button to push your theme to plone.org (or where ever is configured as your theme repo).

or the sharing/publishing can be done via asko's existing git integration - https://github.com/collective/collective.gitresource
Configure a github repo. Click push.

>
> As a theme installer you might
> 1. browse the set of available themes inside theming control panel available on plone.org (or configured theme repo)
> 2. click install
> 3. downloads and activates it.
> 4. asks if you want to install default content and configuration. Gives a summary of what it will install. (maybe you can opt out of some?). Include warnings on what will be overwritten.
> 5. click install. done.
>
> Most of that I think is doable in a sprint or GSOC.
>
>>
>> Maybe it could be done with collectve cover, and/or diazo rules
>>
>>
>> Espen
>>
>>
>>> This idea that themes are 100% generic and can be used on any kind of site is too idealistic I think. It sets the bar far to high and also makes the themes too bland.
>>>
>>> The default content and configuration is installed on first install maybe vs GS. You would likely have upgrades to the diazo or plugins but you would have to ship upgrade profiles to the GS if you wanted to ship a theme that included upgrades to configuration. Most likely you wouldn't.
>>> The idea is to help people get started quickly so they have to make so many choices on how to get a useful site for their purpose quickly.
>>>
>>>> On 24 Mar 2015, at 9:47 pm, David Bain <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One of my frustrations with Wordpress in the past is functionality being tied to themes, I consider this a weakness, not a strength. In fact, it is my understanding that the best wordpress developers discourage the practice, or to put it another way, key functionality in a them is something done in wordpress, found to be wanting and now actively discouraged.
>>>>
>>>> Anchoring key functionality to a theme sets us up for troublesome migration issues (at least when a customer wants to change the look of their site). Upgrading the look of the site becomes a production rather than simply changing the theme.
>>>>
>>>> I'm definitely in favour of distributions, but they need to be theme independent, so that an end user doesn't have to cross their fingers when changing themes for their new Plone based "daily deals distribution", "education distribution" or "mini-reddit-clone distribution".
>>>>
>>>> My suggestion is that an audit of the most commonly used widgets and views be done, then themers would be encouraged to account for these in their theme. The closest thing we have to that now is the /test_rendering view which shows common widgets. A good summer of code project towards this end would be to fill out a more comprehensive reference page for themers.
>>>>
>>>> This approach is used for wordpress themes on themeforest in the form of shortcodes pages.
>>>> See screenshot below:
>>>>
>>>> <image.png>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Bain, RHCSA
>>>> Owner at Alteroo
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> www.alteroo.com
>>>> (876) 475-5824
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:30 AM, espen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>>> at is missing?
>>>>> I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e
>>>>
>>>> Just some brainstorming:
>>>>
>>>> Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites.
>>>> SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see
>>>> Plone site
>>>> and
>>>> PloneDemo1
>>>> PloneDemo2
>>>> etc
>>>>
>>>> As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?)
>>>>
>>>> Espen
>>>>
>>>> View this message in context: Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions
>>>> Sent from the Core Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
>>>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
>>>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>>>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
>>>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Plone-developers mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored
>>>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
>>>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
>>>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
>>>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/_______________________________________________
>>>> Plone-developers mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers


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by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all
things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to
news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the
conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
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Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions

Hi 
( more brainstorming)

Could it be possible to enable «live editing» (the stuff that was included and removed again) just for the front-page?
(then it woud be possible for «new users» to just click and edit the front page 

Espen


27. mars 2015 kl. 10:48 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>:


> On 27 Mar 2015, at 4:42 pm, Dylan Jay <<a href="x-msg://15/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=7573486&amp;i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external">[hidden email]> wrote: 
> 
>> 
>> On 27 Mar 2015, at 4:25 pm, Espen Moe-Nilssen <<a href="x-msg://15/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=7573486&amp;i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external">[hidden email]> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 25. mars 2015 kl. 11:30 skrev Dylan Jay <<a href="x-msg://15/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=7573486&amp;i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external">[hidden email]>: 
>> 
>>> I can't see plone changing quickly such that plone doesn't have smart generic plugins. I'm not suggesting that themes don't use plugins but they come preconfigured and include demo content. 
>>> 
>>> Like this http://themes.crunchpress.com/?theme=book-store-wp
>>> 
>> It would be so cool to have something like this for Plone. 
>> If we focus on diazo themes, it should  be doable, 
>> Oe problem, though, is how to add the content 
>> And also, how to edit it ? 
> 
> I figure the simplest way is to use GS but store it in portal_resources inside the theme in a profiles folder. 
> You can have a control panel to snapshot the current site and that could include filters to only include the "right" kinds of GS steps. There is GS for creating content using plone.rfc822 now but not for saving content to GS I believe. The format kind of sucks and it only handles certain content types so is not universal. Either we improve it or perhaps put jsonify into the core and use that from GS or a combination of both. 
> 
> So as a theme creator you might 
> 1. create a prototype site with the same content. 
> 2. Setup the GS filters to strip out things like users or mailhost settings 
> 3. develop your theme TTW 
> 4. got to theming control panel and snapshot the site. review the XML in the theme editor. 
> 5. click a publish button to push your theme to plone.org (or where ever is configured as your theme repo).
or the sharing/publishing can be done via asko's existing git integration - https://github.com/collective/collective.gitresource
Configure a github repo. Click push. 

> 
> As a theme installer you might 
> 1. browse the set of available themes inside theming control panel available on plone.org (or configured theme repo) 
> 2. click install 
> 3. downloads and activates it. 
> 4. asks if you want to install default content and configuration. Gives a summary of what it will install. (maybe you can opt out of some?). Include warnings on what will be overwritten. 
> 5. click install. done. 
> 
> Most of that I think is doable in a sprint or GSOC. 
> 
>> 
>> Maybe it could be done with collectve cover, and/or diazo rules 
>> 
>> 
>> Espen 
>> 
>> 
>>> This idea that themes are 100% generic and can be used on any kind of site is too idealistic I think. It sets the bar far to high and also makes the themes too bland. 
>>> 
>>> The default content and configuration is installed on first install maybe vs GS. You would likely have upgrades to the diazo or plugins but you would have to ship upgrade profiles to the GS if you wanted to ship a theme that included upgrades to configuration. Most likely you wouldn't. 
>>> The idea is to help people get started quickly so they have to make so many choices on how to get a useful site for their purpose quickly. 
>>> 
>>>> On 24 Mar 2015, at 9:47 pm, David Bain <<a href="x-msg://15/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=7573486&amp;i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external">[hidden email]> wrote: 
>>>> 
>>>> One of my frustrations with Wordpress in the past is functionality being tied to themes, I consider this a weakness, not a strength. In fact, it is my understanding that the best wordpress developers discourage the practice, or to put it another way, key functionality in a them is something done in wordpress, found to be wanting and now actively discouraged. 
>>>> 
>>>> Anchoring key functionality to a theme sets us up for troublesome migration issues (at least when a customer wants to change the look of their site). Upgrading the look of the site becomes a production rather than simply changing the theme. 
>>>> 
>>>> I'm definitely in favour of distributions, but they need to be theme independent, so that an end user doesn't have to cross their fingers when changing themes for their new Plone based "daily deals distribution", "education distribution" or "mini-reddit-clone distribution". 
>>>> 
>>>> My suggestion is that an audit of the most commonly used widgets and views be done, then themers would be encouraged to account for these in their theme. The closest thing we have to that now is the /test_rendering view which shows common widgets. A good summer of code project towards this end would be to fill out a more comprehensive reference page for themers. 
>>>> 
>>>> This approach is used for wordpress themes on themeforest in the form of shortcodes pages. 
>>>> See screenshot below: 
>>>> 
>>>> <image.png> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> - 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> David Bain, RHCSA 
>>>> Owner at Alteroo 
>>>> <a href="x-msg://15/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=7573486&amp;i=4" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external">[hidden email] 
>>>> www.alteroo.com 
>>>> (876) 475-5824 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:30 AM, espen <<a href="x-msg://15/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=7573486&amp;i=5" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external">[hidden email]> wrote: 
>>>> 
>>>> 24. mars 2015 kl. 11:20 skrev Dylan Jay [via Plone] <[hidden email]>: 
>>>> 
>>>>> at is missing? 
>>>>> I realise it's perhaps beyond GSOC student but perhaps not if someone steps up and architects how you could put a prebuilt site into a theme package. Previously I'd suggested just dumping GS xml into the theme package and then a button to install the GS after you activate a theme but no one seemed to like that so perhaps someone could come up with a better idea that a GSOC student could code? And then we could have some great example sites rather than just e 
>>>> 
>>>> Just some brainstorming: 
>>>> 
>>>> Could it somehow be possible that the universal installer installed some Plone sites. 
>>>> SO: after installing Plone (for the first time), when you go to http://localhost:8080, you see 
>>>> Plone site 
>>>> and 
>>>> PloneDemo1 
>>>> PloneDemo2 
>>>> etc 
>>>> 
>>>> As many probably does not want this, it should be possible to turn off in buildout (?) 
>>>> 
>>>> Espen 
>>>> 
>>>> View this message in context: Re: What I'd like to see gsoc achieve: plone distributions 
>>>> Sent from the Core Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored 
>>>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all 
>>>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to 
>>>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the 
>>>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
>>>> _______________________________________________ 
>>>> Plone-developers mailing list 
>>>> <a href="x-msg://15/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=7573486&amp;i=6" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external">[hidden email] 
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>> Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored 
>>>> by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all 
>>>> things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to 
>>>> news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the 
>>>> conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/_______________________________________________
>>>> Plone-developers mailing list 
>>>> <a href="x-msg://15/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=7573486&amp;i=7" target="_top" rel="nofollow" link="external">[hidden email] 
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming The Go Parallel Website, sponsored 
by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all 
things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to 
news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the 
conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______________________________________________ 
Plone-developers mailing list 
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