Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

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hvelarde hvelarde
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Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

Hi!

I'm supporting a proposal to create a new Q&A website for users,
developers, integrators and administrators of the Plone CMS.

It's built on the same software as stackoverflow.com, a hugely popular
site where over seven million programmers help each other with difficult
programming problems. On Stack Overflow the audience votes for the best
answer, so the answer you want is usually right at the top, not on page
five.

I'm hoping that a site for users, developers, integrators and
administrators of the Plone CMS would have the same kind of network
effect and turn into an amazing resource.

The proposal process is going on here:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/80789/plone?referrer=1VU5sYtETgufwcd7jfJFng2

If you're interested in participating, go to that URL and click on the
orange "Follow It!" button.

Thanks!
--
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hvelarde hvelarde
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

guys, sorry for yesterday's boilerplate message; it was late here and I
wanted to leave the office.

more information on this now: as you know, Stack Overflow is a site for
programming questions and sometimes questions made by us are closed as
off-topic. the following is from Stack Overflow Help Center:

What topics can I ask about here?

Stack Overflow is for professional and enthusiast programmers, people
who write code because they love it. We feel the best Stack Overflow
questions have a bit of source code in them, but if your question
generally covers…

     a specific programming problem, or
     a software algorithm, or
     software tools commonly used by programmers; and is
     a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development

… then you’re in the right place to ask your question!

https://stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic

yesterday I discovered that other communities like Drupal, Joomla and
WordPress already have their own sites, so I started looking how can we
do the same thing.

right now we have 20 followers on the definition of the proposal and to
move to the next phase we need the following:

* 40 more followers
* 40 more questions with a score of 10 or more

so please help by following the proposal, sharing it with your contacts,
asking questions and voting on other's questions that make sense for the
new site.

best regards

Héctor Velarde



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Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

There was a discussion about having a separate stackoverflow community awhile back. The decision was that we make more people aware of plone by keeping it part of the main stackoverflow. Maybe things have changed? Maybe it creates more trust if people see a dedicated plone stackoverflow?


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hvelarde hvelarde
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

I have no idea, Dylan; I saw Drupal, Joomla and WordPress sites and I
was wondering why we don't have ours...

I didn't ask anybody neither; I just did it.

and, BTW, we're doing fine: we just need 15 more followers and start
working on the questions.

best regards

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Wichert Akkerman Wichert Akkerman
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone


> On 05 Dec 2014, at 14:20, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have no idea, Dylan; I saw Drupal, Joomla and WordPress sites and I
> was wondering why we don't have ours...
>
> I didn't ask anybody neither; I just did it.

I think Dylan is asking if this is something we want to do, or if that might actually hurt us instead of benefit us. Starting the process of creating a separate stack overflow subsite should only be done with full consensus I’ld say.

Wichert.


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Sean Upton Sean Upton
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 9:17 AM, Wichert Akkerman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think Dylan is asking if this is something we want to do, or if that might actually hurt us instead of benefit us. Starting the process of creating a separate stack overflow subsite should only be done with full consensus I’ld say.

I would think it probable that many would support this.  Stackoverflow
occasionally has problems of moderators outside of our context,
community closing questions that are on-topic for Plone, but
perceptually off-topic for stackoverflow's assumed focus -- which is,
of course, to help CS students plagiarize their data-structures and
algorithms homework. ;-p

Sean

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hvelarde hvelarde
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

In reply to this post by Wichert Akkerman
On 12/05/2014 02:17 PM, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
> I think Dylan is asking if this is something we want to do, or if that might actually hurt us instead of benefit us. Starting the process of creating a separate stack overflow subsite should only be done with full consensus I’ld say.

HV> do we need more consensus than 60 people backing the proposal?

just to remember: to create a site we need to pass over a process in
which we show our commitment with it: first, we need 60 followers and 40
questions with a score of 10 or more; then we need the commitment of
those people to make the site work and finally we will see a site in
beta phase.

for the full details read this: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq

how can a full site on which we (and not a bunch of guys that just want
to earn points by closing somebody else questions) decide what is
on-topic and what is off-topic?

again, Stack Overflow is a site for making questions about programming only:

How to Ask
Is your question about programming?
We prefer questions that can be answered, not just discussed.

I want a site about Plone and seems that 55 more plonistas agree on that:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/80789/plone?referrer=1VU5sYtETgufwcd7jfJFng2 


in this site we can discuss and solve questions about anything: setup,
development, documentation, deployment, integration... you name it...
and not only programming questions.

in this site people will earn points by answering Plone questions only;
this will lead to more recognition of people doing what we want to do:
show commitment with Plone.

we need only 4 more followers and 37 more questions with a score of 10
or more to move to the next phase.

what about you?

best regards

Héctor Velarde

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Steve McMahon Steve McMahon
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

Hi MJ,

I wanted to make sure you knew that the Plone Developers list is currently discussing the desirability of having our a Plone-specific StackExchange list, rather than relying on the main StackOverflow.

Since you've answered three times as many Plone-tagged questions as anyone else, I think we'd all like to hear your opinion.

Thanks, Steve

On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 12/05/2014 02:17 PM, Wichert Akkerman wrote:
> I think Dylan is asking if this is something we want to do, or if that might actually hurt us instead of benefit us. Starting the process of creating a separate stack overflow subsite should only be done with full consensus I’ld say.

HV> do we need more consensus than 60 people backing the proposal?

just to remember: to create a site we need to pass over a process in
which we show our commitment with it: first, we need 60 followers and 40
questions with a score of 10 or more; then we need the commitment of
those people to make the site work and finally we will see a site in
beta phase.

for the full details read this: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq

how can a full site on which we (and not a bunch of guys that just want
to earn points by closing somebody else questions) decide what is
on-topic and what is off-topic?

again, Stack Overflow is a site for making questions about programming only:

How to Ask
Is your question about programming?
We prefer questions that can be answered, not just discussed.

I want a site about Plone and seems that 55 more plonistas agree on that:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/80789/plone?referrer=1VU5sYtETgufwcd7jfJFng2


in this site we can discuss and solve questions about anything: setup,
development, documentation, deployment, integration... you name it...
and not only programming questions.

in this site people will earn points by answering Plone questions only;
this will lead to more recognition of people doing what we want to do:
show commitment with Plone.

we need only 4 more followers and 37 more questions with a score of 10
or more to move to the next phase.

what about you?

best regards

Héctor Velarde

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Eric Steele Eric Steele
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

In reply to this post by Wichert Akkerman

On Dec 5, 2014, at 11:17 AM, Wichert Akkerman <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 05 Dec 2014, at 14:20, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have no idea, Dylan; I saw Drupal, Joomla and WordPress sites and I
was wondering why we don't have ours...

I didn't ask anybody neither; I just did it.

I think Dylan is asking if this is something we want to do, or if that might actually hurt us instead of benefit us. Starting the process of creating a separate stack overflow subsite should only be done with full consensus I’ld say.

Wichert.

(trying this again since I can't keep straight which address to use for posting)

Agreed. Summarizing some discussion from IRC here...

We decided at some point (Budapest or Bristol-the-First) that we wanted to try to deprecate plone-users and move over to StackOverflow, with the idea that StackOverflow was:

  1. well-moderated
  2. did a good job of preventing the same question being asked weekly
  3. gave the rest of the world more exposure to Plone and Plone to the rest of the world (mainly more access to other Python devs).
  4. less ephemeral, more googleable than mailing lists

Plone-users never quite died because people wanted to be able to have general discussions that didn't get moderated out by Stack Overflow.

Doing some math (with thanks to pwrentch for the numbers), of 2,249 questions tagged 'Plone', 44 have been closed, which works out to 1.9%, and most of those have answers anyway. So I don't know that the off-topic issue is a particularly big deal.

So in a "Plone needs to evangelize more" respect, SO-proper gives us exposure to people who wouldn't otherwise see us, SO-Plone gives us a shiny "We have our own StackOverflow site". Is one of these more valid than the other?


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Martijn Pieters Martijn Pieters
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

In reply to this post by hvelarde
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have no idea, Dylan; I saw Drupal, Joomla and WordPress sites and I
> was wondering why we don't have ours...

That is, frankly, not a very good reason to start a new site.

Starting a new Stack Exchange site is a *lot of work*. It'll take a
lot of commitment, community building and hard work getting the focus
and topic range right. This is not a step you should take lightly.

It could be worth it, of course, but you need to weigh the benefits
against the disadvantages here.

One advantage would be is that you get to set your own scope. Stack
Overflow is *strictly* about programming problems. A dedicated site
could expand this to end-user questions (*How do I make the text in a
Page blue?*, *How do I set my folder to the gallery view?*), server
configuration, general administration tasks, broader integration
advice, etc.

However, the Stack Exchange model is not suitable for open-ended or
broad questions; the model is only really workable for questions with
clear answers, not for hashing out strategies, for making
recommendations about what the 'best' add-on is for a given task, etc.
Starting a Plone.SE wouldn't give you a card-blanche to just toss out
that focus. As such you'd still need to retain a mailinglist or forum
of sorts, to handle discussions that don't fit the Q&A model.

Also note that users with programming questions involving Plone won't
automatically be shunned from Stack Overflow. Any Wordpress or Joomla
questions that involve a programming problem are not off-topic for
Stack Overflow just because there are dedicated sites now. Having your
own site doesn't guarantee you get the Stack Overflow traffic.

Personally, I don't think that there is going to be enough material
and activity to sustain a Plone.SE site. You'd need many more active
users than just the initial 60-odd users to get through the beta
stages to a fully graduated site. You'd need a higher question volume;
Plone on Stack Overflow has seen a little over 2000 questions in 5
years time; the Joomla site has more than 1000 in just 230 days, and
that is actually considered *low* for a beta.

That said, I'll happily help out defining scope and giving feedback on
the site proposal. I've started following it, and if it does reach
private beta I'll certainly try to be active on it.

--
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andreasma andreasma
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

In reply to this post by hvelarde
Hello,

Am 04.12.2014 um 14:31 schrieb Héctor Velarde:
> (...)
>
> yesterday I discovered that other communities like Drupal, Joomla and
> WordPress already have their own sites, so I started looking how can
> we do the same thing.

only a short addition: the LibreOffice community has such a tool running
too:
http://ask.libreoffice.org/en/questions/

It is build on askbot and located in some languages.

Regards,
Andreas

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johannes raggam johannes raggam
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

In reply to this post by Eric Steele
On Sat, 2014-12-06 at 21:41 -0500, Eric Steele wrote:


> So in a "Plone needs to evangelize more" respect, SO-proper gives us
> exposure to people who wouldn't otherwise see us, SO-Plone gives us a
> shiny "We have our own StackOverflow site". Is one of these more valid
> than the other?

2nd one, IMO.

i don't think plone on StackOverflow without a own SO site would give us
more exposure to non-plone users. my SO search engine in the first place
is google and not SO.



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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

In reply to this post by Martijn Pieters
now this is an interesting answer full with quite good points to
continue the discussion.

thanks, Martjin for taking the time to write this and thanks to Steve
for bringing you in.

my points on having a Plone site on Stack Exchange Q&A are not just
based on "jealousy", but on my own experience on Stack Overflow as I
already mentioned on other replies.

and don't misunderstand me: I know is going to be difficult but I also
think the SO model works so well that we should expand its reach beyond
programming questions only.

the site creation process is detailed here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_Exchange#Site_creation_process

I don't know if we are going to reach the level of commitment needed,
but I think the benefits worth to try.

best regards

PS: Martjin could you please add to your comments an alternative on how
a question should be asked?

for instance, I created a question asking for the best practices for
creating a HA Plone site, you said the question was too open-ended,
broad and opinion based to fit the Q&A model of Stack Exchange.

now the question reads "What are the components that make up a HA Plone
site?", it is better now?

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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

On 7 Dec 2014, at 17:42, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
> now the question reads "What are the components that make up a HA Plone site?", it is better now?

That's still very broad, I fear. Focus on the direct problem that can be solved, not ask for a list. Something like

    We are having problems keeping our Plone site up 24/7 when applying software updates, how can we apply new versions?

or similar focussed questions.

List questions (what answer would be better? The one that names 5 items, or the one with 3 no one thought of, etc.). Keep questions focused and answerable within the format.

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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

I'd like to direct attention to another aspect of Martijn's information:

"""
Starting a new Stack Exchange site is a *lot of work*.
....
You'd need a higher question volume;
Plone on Stack Overflow has seen a little over 2000 questions in 5
years time; the Joomla site has more than 1000 in just 230 days, and
that is actually considered *low* for a beta.
"""

Is this where we want to spend our energy? Is the problem we've had with occasional mis-closed issues adequate to warrant that expenditure of energy?

At the moment, I'm thinking the answer is "on balance, no."

Maybe instead we should be working on getting more of our folks to the SE karma levels where we can do our own policing. We really don't have enough people that are active in answering questions in a sustained way. http://stackoverflow.com/tags/plone/topusers

Steve



On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Martijn Pieters <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 7 Dec 2014, at 17:42, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
> now the question reads "What are the components that make up a HA Plone site?", it is better now?

That's still very broad, I fear. Focus on the direct problem that can be solved, not ask for a list. Something like

    We are having problems keeping our Plone site up 24/7 when applying software updates, how can we apply new versions?

or similar focussed questions.

List questions (what answer would be better? The one that names 5 items, or the one with 3 no one thought of, etc.). Keep questions focused and answerable within the format.

--
Martijn Pieters
www.zopatista.com


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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 12:38 AM, Steve McMahon <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Maybe instead we should be working on getting more of our folks to the SE
> karma levels where we can do our own policing. We really don't have enough
> people that are active in answering questions in a sustained way.
> http://stackoverflow.com/tags/plone/topusers

I think this'll be a better use of your energy. Given the current
levels of participation on the Plone tag on SO I'm not that confident
there'll be enough of an active community to sustain a dedicated site
even.

You may have noticed that I am not all that active in the tag anymore
myself; this is just due my current projects being focused elsewhere.

--
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

On 08-12-2014 12:03, Martijn Pieters wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 12:38 AM, Steve McMahon <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Maybe instead we should be working on getting more of our folks to the SE
>> karma levels where we can do our own policing. We really don't have enough
>> people that are active in answering questions in a sustained way.
>> http://stackoverflow.com/tags/plone/topusers
>
> I think this'll be a better use of your energy. Given the current
> levels of participation on the Plone tag on SO I'm not that confident
> there'll be enough of an active community to sustain a dedicated site
> even.
HV> I don't agree: current levels of participation are related to the
scope of Stack Overflow; if we open the scope of the Q&A site, then
we'll see more participation.

anyway, at this moment we all are speculating; strangely enough, I'm the
optimist here ;-)

let's see what happens...

we reached 64 followers; we only need 35 more questions with a score of
10 or more to move to the next phase.

so, if you are in favor of the Q&A site, go to the proposal ask some
questions and vote over the others questions:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/80789/plone?referrer=1VU5sYtETgufwcd7jfJFng2 


if you think the site doesn't worth it, then do nothing.

best regards

Héctor Velarde


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Steve McMahon Steve McMahon
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

I should mention that I jumped in and added some questions and votes as a way of trying out the idea.

On balance, I'm now against it. That may be true of some others who did the same. So I would not use participation as a proxy for agreement.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 8:14 AM, Héctor Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 08-12-2014 12:03, Martijn Pieters wrote:
On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 12:38 AM, Steve McMahon <[hidden email]> wrote:
Maybe instead we should be working on getting more of our folks to the SE
karma levels where we can do our own policing. We really don't have enough
people that are active in answering questions in a sustained way.
http://stackoverflow.com/tags/plone/topusers

I think this'll be a better use of your energy. Given the current
levels of participation on the Plone tag on SO I'm not that confident
there'll be enough of an active community to sustain a dedicated site
even.

HV> I don't agree: current levels of participation are related to the scope of Stack Overflow; if we open the scope of the Q&A site, then we'll see more participation.

anyway, at this moment we all are speculating; strangely enough, I'm the optimist here ;-)

let's see what happens...

we reached 64 followers; we only need 35 more questions with a score of 10 or more to move to the next phase.

so, if you are in favor of the Q&A site, go to the proposal ask some questions and vote over the others questions:

http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/80789/plone?referrer=1VU5sYtETgufwcd7jfJFng2

if you think the site doesn't worth it, then do nothing.

best regards

Héctor Velarde


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Martijn Pieters Martijn Pieters
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:45 PM, Steve McMahon <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I should mention that I jumped in and added some questions and votes as a
> way of trying out the idea.
>
> On balance, I'm now against it. That may be true of some others who did the
> same. So I would not use participation as a proxy for agreement.

There is a next stage, *Commitment*, where people commit to supporting
the site if it goes to private beta. How many people need to commit
depends on how many 'high reputation' users are willing to commit, and
how often committers revisit the proposal to see how much progress is
being made.

See http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq and
http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/53650/area-51-commit-percent

I'd count on having to find 200 people to commit to the proposal
before it makes it to the private beta stage.

--
Martijn Pieters

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hvelarde hvelarde
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Re: Stack Exchange Q&A site proposal: Plone

I think we can let the proposal rest until the beginning of next year;
nobody would really pay attention to it on holidays.

best regards

Héctor Velarde



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