Plone 5 Theme

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
48 messages Options
123
Ramon Navarro Bosch Ramon Navarro Bosch
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Plone 5 Theme

Hey,

During Arnhem sprint we started working on the plone 5 theme based on the new semantic main_template.

My idea is to deliver a plone theme with a toolbar (not the ajax one) so we can have a working version that allows us to deliver an alpha and have a plone without FE/BE. Later on we can activate toolbar.

There are some issues that appeared during the implementation of this theme :

* DL/DT/DD: this tags on HTML5 are defined to be used on definitions of concepts, so on semantic world doesn't make any sense to have them where are used (status message, content actions, ... ) so my idea is to remove them. I already removed some of them on the main_template branches plip but before continuing I thought about asking opinions. This change means that we will have a broken build ( it involves so many tests ) and needs to go deep on the different templates. (right now main_template jenkins job is broken because of that)

If somebody wants to try it you need coredev buildout 5.0 and use the plip13787 config file!

The theme is called plonetheme.barceloneta ( it's a neiborhoud in Barcelona and also a beach ).

R

--
Ramon a.k.a bloodbare

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
polyester polyester
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Plone 5 Theme

On 14-11-13 23:25, Ramon Navarro Bosch wrote:

>
> * DL/DT/DD: this tags on HTML5 are defined to be used on definitions of
> concepts, so on semantic world doesn't make any sense to have them where
> are used (status message, content actions, ... ) so my idea is to remove
> them. I already removed some of them on the main_template branches plip
> but before continuing I thought about asking opinions. This change means
> that we will have a broken build ( it involves so many tests ) and needs
> to go deep on the different templates. (right now main_template jenkins
> job is broken because of that)
>

Our prolific use of DL/DT/DD was/is also a problem for a11y; they are
currently (4.x) used in portlets way too much. They should go.
Accessibility tests do not look kindly upon using DL and allies in
non-meaningful ways.

During PSM, the people working on accessibility already agreed they
should be taken out of portlets. But since that would break lots of
stuff, it was decided it should wait until Plone5.

So yes, by all means, remove them. They should be removed from all
portlets as well. Will see what I can do to remove them wholesale from
all portlets we ship with.

It may break tests, but it breaks a11y in more serious ways. So better
to remove them, and fix the tests.

paul


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
David Glick (Plone) David Glick (Plone)
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Plone 5 Theme

On 11/14/13, 4:04 PM, polyester wrote:

> On 14-11-13 23:25, Ramon Navarro Bosch wrote:
>
>> * DL/DT/DD: this tags on HTML5 are defined to be used on definitions of
>> concepts, so on semantic world doesn't make any sense to have them where
>> are used (status message, content actions, ... ) so my idea is to remove
>> them. I already removed some of them on the main_template branches plip
>> but before continuing I thought about asking opinions. This change means
>> that we will have a broken build ( it involves so many tests ) and needs
>> to go deep on the different templates. (right now main_template jenkins
>> job is broken because of that)
>>
> Our prolific use of DL/DT/DD was/is also a problem for a11y; they are
> currently (4.x) used in portlets way too much. They should go.
> Accessibility tests do not look kindly upon using DL and allies in
> non-meaningful ways.
>
> During PSM, the people working on accessibility already agreed they
> should be taken out of portlets. But since that would break lots of
> stuff, it was decided it should wait until Plone5.
>
> So yes, by all means, remove them. They should be removed from all
> portlets as well. Will see what I can do to remove them wholesale from
> all portlets we ship with.
>
> It may break tests, but it breaks a11y in more serious ways. So better
> to remove them, and fix the tests.
>
>
What markup is preferred? Maybe something like this for portlets:

<aside class="portlet">
  <header>asdf</header>
  <section class="portletItem">asdf</section>
  <footer><a href="...">Read more...</a></footer>
</aside>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
johannes raggam johannes raggam
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Plone 5 Theme

On Don, 2013-11-14 at 16:10 -0800, David Glick (Plone) wrote:

> On 11/14/13, 4:04 PM, polyester wrote:
> > On 14-11-13 23:25, Ramon Navarro Bosch wrote:
> >
> >> * DL/DT/DD: this tags on HTML5 are defined to be used on definitions of
> >> concepts, so on semantic world doesn't make any sense to have them where
> >> are used (status message, content actions, ... ) so my idea is to remove
> >> them. I already removed some of them on the main_template branches plip
> >> but before continuing I thought about asking opinions. This change means
> >> that we will have a broken build ( it involves so many tests ) and needs
> >> to go deep on the different templates. (right now main_template jenkins
> >> job is broken because of that)
> >>
> > Our prolific use of DL/DT/DD was/is also a problem for a11y; they are
> > currently (4.x) used in portlets way too much. They should go.
> > Accessibility tests do not look kindly upon using DL and allies in
> > non-meaningful ways.
> >
> > During PSM, the people working on accessibility already agreed they
> > should be taken out of portlets. But since that would break lots of
> > stuff, it was decided it should wait until Plone5.
> >
> > So yes, by all means, remove them. They should be removed from all
> > portlets as well. Will see what I can do to remove them wholesale from
> > all portlets we ship with.
> >
> > It may break tests, but it breaks a11y in more serious ways. So better
> > to remove them, and fix the tests.
> >
> >
> What markup is preferred? Maybe something like this for portlets:
>
> <aside class="portlet">
>   <header>asdf</header>
>   <section class="portletItem">asdf</section>
>   <footer><a href="...">Read more...</a></footer>
> </aside>

+1 for removing the definition lists and using the proposal above.

fixing tests is a massive amount of effort, tough. we should find a
strategy how to fix this.


>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
polyester polyester
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Plone 5 Theme

In reply to this post by David Glick (Plone)
On 15-11-13 01:10, David Glick (Plone) wrote:

> What markup is preferred? Maybe something like this for portlets:
>
> <aside class="portlet">
>   <header>asdf</header>
>   <section class="portletItem">asdf</section>
>   <footer><a href="...">Read more...</a></footer>
> </aside>
>


basically, if it ain't a proper, semantic, Definition List:

- use UL
- and yes, you can use aside as well for status messages, but that has
issues with braindead browsers not supporting html5 properly. That not
only includes everybody's favourite object of hate in browserland, but
also jaws, the IE equivalent of the a11y world.

so, the pragmatic (though not 100% correct, but hey pragmatic) thing to
do for portlets and status messages is to use UL, and add enhancements
via aria roles where appropriate. And style the UL's nicely.


paul




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Ramon Navarro Bosch Ramon Navarro Bosch
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Plone 5 Theme

Thats what i used for content actions and personal actions menu on barceloneta theme!

Enviat des d'un dispositiu mòbil

El 15/11/2013, a les 10.38, polyester <[hidden email]> va escriure:

> On 15-11-13 01:10, David Glick (Plone) wrote:
>
>> What markup is preferred? Maybe something like this for portlets:
>>
>> <aside class="portlet">
>>  <header>asdf</header>
>>  <section class="portletItem">asdf</section>
>>  <footer><a href="...">Read more...</a></footer>
>> </aside>
>
>
> basically, if it ain't a proper, semantic, Definition List:
>
> - use UL
> - and yes, you can use aside as well for status messages, but that has
> issues with braindead browsers not supporting html5 properly. That not
> only includes everybody's favourite object of hate in browserland, but
> also jaws, the IE equivalent of the a11y world.
>
> so, the pragmatic (though not 100% correct, but hey pragmatic) thing to
> do for portlets and status messages is to use UL, and add enhancements
> via aria roles where appropriate. And style the UL's nicely.
>
>
> paul
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
hvelarde hvelarde
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Plone 5 Theme

In reply to this post by polyester
On 15-11-2013 07:38, polyester wrote:
> so, the pragmatic (though not 100% correct, but hey pragmatic) thing to
> do for portlets and status messages is to use UL, and add enhancements
> via aria roles where appropriate. And style the UL's nicely.

and talking about ARIA roles, I would love to see more comments on this:
https://github.com/plone/plone.app.z3cform/pull/7


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers

smime.p7s (5K) Download Attachment
Wichert Akkerman Wichert Akkerman
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Plone 5 Theme

In reply to this post by polyester
On 15 Nov 2013, at 10:38, polyester <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 15-11-13 01:10, David Glick (Plone) wrote:
>
>> What markup is preferred? Maybe something like this for portlets:
>>
>> <aside class="portlet">
>>  <header>asdf</header>
>>  <section class="portletItem">asdf</section>
>>  <footer><a href="...">Read more...</a></footer>
>> </aside>
>>
>
>
> basically, if it ain't a proper, semantic, Definition List:
>
> - use UL

Most of the time you don’t need to put things in a list. You can just put them next to each other as well.

> - and yes, you can use aside as well for status messages, but that has
> issues with braindead browsers not supporting html5 properly. That not
> only includes everybody's favourite object of hate in browserland, but
> also jaws, the IE equivalent of the a11y world.

There have been shivs to get these tags working in IE for a number of years now.

Wichert.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Eric Steele Eric Steele
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Plone 5 Theme

In reply to this post by johannes raggam
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 at 8:53 PM, Johannes Raggam wrote:
On Don, 2013-11-14 at 16:10 -0800, David Glick (Plone) wrote:
On 11/14/13, 4:04 PM, polyester wrote:
On 14-11-13 23:25, Ramon Navarro Bosch wrote:

* DL/DT/DD: this tags on HTML5 are defined to be used on definitions of
concepts, so on semantic world doesn't make any sense to have them where
are used (status message, content actions, ... ) so my idea is to remove
them. I already removed some of them on the main_template branches plip
but before continuing I thought about asking opinions. This change means
that we will have a broken build ( it involves so many tests ) and needs
to go deep on the different templates. (right now main_template jenkins
job is broken because of that)
Our prolific use of DL/DT/DD was/is also a problem for a11y; they are
currently (4.x) used in portlets way too much. They should go.
Accessibility tests do not look kindly upon using DL and allies in
non-meaningful ways.

During PSM, the people working on accessibility already agreed they
should be taken out of portlets. But since that would break lots of
stuff, it was decided it should wait until Plone5.

So yes, by all means, remove them. They should be removed from all
portlets as well. Will see what I can do to remove them wholesale from
all portlets we ship with.

It may break tests, but it breaks a11y in more serious ways. So better
to remove them, and fix the tests.
What markup is preferred? Maybe something like this for portlets:

<aside class="portlet">
<header>asdf</header>
<section class="portletItem">asdf</section>
<footer><a href="...">Read more...</a></footer>
</aside>

+1 for removing the definition lists and using the proposal above.

fixing tests is a massive amount of effort, tough. we should find a
strategy how to fix this.
Since the theme is a roadblock to any early releases at this point, I'd like to clear as much out of Ramon's way as possible. So I'd like to give him a pass on any failing tests for now. As we approach the point at which it can be merged, we'll organize an afternoon (or local time equivalent) of test fixing. Since this is going to be a largely repetitive task, I'd think 4-8 people could blast through the failures fairly quickly. 

Thanks, Ramon, for taking this on. It's looking great. 
 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Asko Soukka Asko Soukka
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Plone 5 Theme

In reply to this post by johannes raggam
Johannes Raggam wrote:
> fixing tests is a massive amount of effort, tough. we should find a
> strategy how to fix this.

Briefly about robot tests. I think, we agreeded here that the current
robot tests in CMFPlone for Plone 5 can be disabled until all the lower
level tests pass.

We are still in process of learning the correct way and style of writing
robot tests and CMFPlone's are not yet there and require rewrite (but as
they have been written by developers learning robot in sprints, it has
been important for our testing skills in common).

We did not yet fully agree, where robot tests should be eventually
located and how could be make them re-usable with custom themes. Still
things to try and learn.

We write an few example robot suites in p.a.multilingual to be an
example of what we currently think as a good robot tests:

https://github.com/plone/plone.app.multilingual/blob/master/devel/plone/app/multilingual/tests/robot/test_translate_content.robot

Cheers,
Asko

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Ramon Navarro Bosch Ramon Navarro Bosch
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Plone 5 Theme

Sorry for the cross-posting!

I decided to write down my opinions after working at Arnhem sprint on plone 5 theme, it's just a dump of what I have in mind :


Go go go !

Ramon


2013/11/15 Asko Soukka <[hidden email]>
Johannes Raggam wrote:
> fixing tests is a massive amount of effort, tough. we should find a
> strategy how to fix this.

Briefly about robot tests. I think, we agreeded here that the current
robot tests in CMFPlone for Plone 5 can be disabled until all the lower
level tests pass.

We are still in process of learning the correct way and style of writing
robot tests and CMFPlone's are not yet there and require rewrite (but as
they have been written by developers learning robot in sprints, it has
been important for our testing skills in common).

We did not yet fully agree, where robot tests should be eventually
located and how could be make them re-usable with custom themes. Still
things to try and learn.

We write an few example robot suites in p.a.multilingual to be an
example of what we currently think as a good robot tests:

https://github.com/plone/plone.app.multilingual/blob/master/devel/plone/app/multilingual/tests/robot/test_translate_content.robot

Cheers,
Asko

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers



--
Ramon a.k.a bloodbare

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Plone-UI] Plone 5 Theme

On 18 Nov 2013, at 11:13 pm, Ramon Navarro Bosch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry for the cross-posting!
>
> I decided to write down my opinions after working at Arnhem sprint on plone 5 theme, it's just a dump of what I have in mind :
>
> http://bloc.jardigrec.cat/2013/11/plone-5-theme-plonethemebarceloneta.html

"The toolbar idea is to have a backend and a frontend that makes skining frontend really easy. The idea is great and uses a lot of js/iframe magik to do it. It's were we must go to compete with CMS with separate frontend and backend. In my opinion, I love the way is it now regarthless it's much harder to implement the skin. For this reason I think that ajax-toolbar should be optional."

Can you explain your reasoning here? You seem to be saying separation is good but you don't want it. Why?
If we have to make the toolbar non-isolated it makes it 10 times harder than it already is.


>
> Go go go !
>
> Ramon
>
>
> 2013/11/15 Asko Soukka <[hidden email]>
> Johannes Raggam wrote:
> > fixing tests is a massive amount of effort, tough. we should find a
> > strategy how to fix this.
>
> Briefly about robot tests. I think, we agreeded here that the current
> robot tests in CMFPlone for Plone 5 can be disabled until all the lower
> level tests pass.
>
> We are still in process of learning the correct way and style of writing
> robot tests and CMFPlone's are not yet there and require rewrite (but as
> they have been written by developers learning robot in sprints, it has
> been important for our testing skills in common).
>
> We did not yet fully agree, where robot tests should be eventually
> located and how could be make them re-usable with custom themes. Still
> things to try and learn.
>
> We write an few example robot suites in p.a.multilingual to be an
> example of what we currently think as a good robot tests:
>
> https://github.com/plone/plone.app.multilingual/blob/master/devel/plone/app/multilingual/tests/robot/test_translate_content.robot
>
> Cheers,
> Asko
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>
>
>
> --
> Ramon a.k.a bloodbare
> _______________________________________________
> UI mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-ui


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Ramon Navarro Bosch Ramon Navarro Bosch
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Plone-UI] Plone 5 Theme

Mainly for two reasons:

* In most of our use cases the client prefers no modals ( there is a lot of content edition and they love to see the edit and the view with the same skin )
* In most of our use cases the client needs specific edit forms (skinned and layout) so it's common that we need to skin also the backend and the edit forms layout.

So in these cases I don't see any adventage of using ajax modal forms vs native edit forms. Maybe I'm wrong, it's just my opinion!. Don't missunderstand me, I'm sure that for normal edition or low budgets webs ajax/iframe/modal toolbar is great!


2013/11/18 Dylan Jay <[hidden email]>
On 18 Nov 2013, at 11:13 pm, Ramon Navarro Bosch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry for the cross-posting!
>
> I decided to write down my opinions after working at Arnhem sprint on plone 5 theme, it's just a dump of what I have in mind :
>
> http://bloc.jardigrec.cat/2013/11/plone-5-theme-plonethemebarceloneta.html

"The toolbar idea is to have a backend and a frontend that makes skining frontend really easy. The idea is great and uses a lot of js/iframe magik to do it. It's were we must go to compete with CMS with separate frontend and backend. In my opinion, I love the way is it now regarthless it's much harder to implement the skin. For this reason I think that ajax-toolbar should be optional."

Can you explain your reasoning here? You seem to be saying separation is good but you don't want it. Why?
If we have to make the toolbar non-isolated it makes it 10 times harder than it already is.


>
> Go go go !
>
> Ramon
>
>
> 2013/11/15 Asko Soukka <[hidden email]>
> Johannes Raggam wrote:
> > fixing tests is a massive amount of effort, tough. we should find a
> > strategy how to fix this.
>
> Briefly about robot tests. I think, we agreeded here that the current
> robot tests in CMFPlone for Plone 5 can be disabled until all the lower
> level tests pass.
>
> We are still in process of learning the correct way and style of writing
> robot tests and CMFPlone's are not yet there and require rewrite (but as
> they have been written by developers learning robot in sprints, it has
> been important for our testing skills in common).
>
> We did not yet fully agree, where robot tests should be eventually
> located and how could be make them re-usable with custom themes. Still
> things to try and learn.
>
> We write an few example robot suites in p.a.multilingual to be an
> example of what we currently think as a good robot tests:
>
> https://github.com/plone/plone.app.multilingual/blob/master/devel/plone/app/multilingual/tests/robot/test_translate_content.robot
>
> Cheers,
> Asko
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>
>
>
> --
> Ramon a.k.a bloodbare
> _______________________________________________
> UI mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-ui




--
Ramon a.k.a bloodbare

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
thomas desvenain thomas desvenain
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Plone-UI] Plone 5 Theme




On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Ramon Navarro Bosch <[hidden email]> wrote:
Mainly for two reasons:

* In most of our use cases the client prefers no modals ( there is a lot of content edition and they love to see the edit and the view with the same skin )

On most of our projects we get the use case where users get write access on few folders of the site and only read access on many others.
Current Plone edit bar is really more suitable for this use case.

 
* In most of our use cases the client needs specific edit forms (skinned and layout) so it's common that we need to skin also the backend and the edit forms layout.

We have the same. We have large extranets where some contributors are almost 'unknown', we prefer that they have well skinned edit form, consistent with display.
 
My opinion is that toolbar is a good option for sites with few editors and a lot of visitors, but that current Plone edit bar is better for sites where all users are contributors. I hope that the edit bar will remain as an option.



So in these cases I don't see any adventage of using ajax modal forms vs native edit forms. Maybe I'm wrong, it's just my opinion!. Don't missunderstand me, I'm sure that for normal edition or low budgets webs ajax/iframe/modal toolbar is great!


2013/11/18 Dylan Jay <[hidden email]>
On 18 Nov 2013, at 11:13 pm, Ramon Navarro Bosch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry for the cross-posting!
>
> I decided to write down my opinions after working at Arnhem sprint on plone 5 theme, it's just a dump of what I have in mind :
>
> http://bloc.jardigrec.cat/2013/11/plone-5-theme-plonethemebarceloneta.html

"The toolbar idea is to have a backend and a frontend that makes skining frontend really easy. The idea is great and uses a lot of js/iframe magik to do it. It's were we must go to compete with CMS with separate frontend and backend. In my opinion, I love the way is it now regarthless it's much harder to implement the skin. For this reason I think that ajax-toolbar should be optional."

Can you explain your reasoning here? You seem to be saying separation is good but you don't want it. Why?
If we have to make the toolbar non-isolated it makes it 10 times harder than it already is.


>
> Go go go !
>
> Ramon
>
>
> 2013/11/15 Asko Soukka <[hidden email]>
> Johannes Raggam wrote:
> > fixing tests is a massive amount of effort, tough. we should find a
> > strategy how to fix this.
>
> Briefly about robot tests. I think, we agreeded here that the current
> robot tests in CMFPlone for Plone 5 can be disabled until all the lower
> level tests pass.
>
> We are still in process of learning the correct way and style of writing
> robot tests and CMFPlone's are not yet there and require rewrite (but as
> they have been written by developers learning robot in sprints, it has
> been important for our testing skills in common).
>
> We did not yet fully agree, where robot tests should be eventually
> located and how could be make them re-usable with custom themes. Still
> things to try and learn.
>
> We write an few example robot suites in p.a.multilingual to be an
> example of what we currently think as a good robot tests:
>
> https://github.com/plone/plone.app.multilingual/blob/master/devel/plone/app/multilingual/tests/robot/test_translate_content.robot
>
> Cheers,
> Asko
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> _______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
>
>
>
> --
> Ramon a.k.a bloodbare
> _______________________________________________
> UI mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-ui




--
Ramon a.k.a bloodbare

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers




--
Thomas Desvenain

Téléphone : 09 51 37 35 18

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Timo Stollenwerk-2 Timo Stollenwerk-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Plone-UI] Plone 5 Theme

In reply to this post by Ramon Navarro Bosch
Am 18.11.2013 16:23, schrieb Ramon Navarro Bosch:
> Mainly for two reasons:
>
> * In most of our use cases the client prefers no modals ( there is a lot
> of content edition and they love to see the edit and the view with the
> same skin )

+ 100

Not having a separation between backend and frontend has always been one
of the biggest selling points of the Plone UI. As far as I can tell
other CMSes are trying to get rid of that separation for a good reason.

We are about to go into the opposite direction "to make theming easier"
(which was the original point of p.a.toolbar if I recall correctly).
Though, according to Ramon and what I saw so far theming will become
more complicated with p.a.toolbar.

> * In most of our use cases the client needs specific edit forms (skinned
> and layout) so it's common that we need to skin also the backend and the
> edit forms layout.

Same here. Right now I can't imaging to use p.a.toolbar/modals (again)
for my customer projects (for UI as well as technical reasons that I
pointed out before) and I would really like to see a Plone 5 where I'm
not forced to use overlays.

Cheers,
Timo

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Nathan Van Gheem-3 Nathan Van Gheem-3
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Plone-UI] Plone 5 Theme




On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 9:44 AM, Timo Stollenwerk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 18.11.2013 16:23, schrieb Ramon Navarro Bosch:
> Mainly for two reasons:
>
> * In most of our use cases the client prefers no modals ( there is a lot
> of content edition and they love to see the edit and the view with the
> same skin )

+ 100
...
 

Not having a separation between backend and frontend has always been one
of the biggest selling points of the Plone UI. As far as I can tell
other CMSes are trying to get rid of that separation for a good reason.
which ones? Others are doing the contextual editing finally but, if they mix editing, they'll just end up getting the same theming nightmare we have.
 

We are about to go into the opposite direction "to make theming easier"
(which was the original point of p.a.toolbar if I recall correctly).
Though, according to Ramon and what I saw so far theming will become
more complicated with p.a.toolbar.
It's not more complicated to theme with plone.app.toolbar. It might be more difficult to theme the backend...


> * In most of our use cases the client needs specific edit forms (skinned
> and layout) so it's common that we need to skin also the backend and the
> edit forms layout.

Same here. Right now I can't imaging to use p.a.toolbar/modals (again)
for my customer projects (for UI as well as technical reasons that I
pointed out before) and I would really like to see a Plone 5 where I'm
not forced to use overlays.
Wow, yikes. Are you sure these customers just aren't too used to the old plone way of doing things? Have you tested this on new customers?

So what you're saying is that we should maintain backend css in our themes still and then also maintain all the toolbar, modals, etc. Sounds like a really bad idea.
 

Cheers,
Timo
_______________________________________________
UI mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/plone-ui



--
Nathan Van Gheem
Solutions Architect
Wildcard Corp

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Rok Garbas-2 Rok Garbas-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Plone-UI] Plone 5 Theme

Quoting Nathan Van Gheem (2013-11-18 16:54:07)

>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 9:44 AM, Timo Stollenwerk <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>     Am 18.11.2013 16:23, schrieb Ramon Navarro Bosch:
>     > Mainly for two reasons:
>     >
>     > * In most of our use cases the client prefers no modals ( there is a lot
>     > of content edition and they love to see the edit and the view with the
>     > same skin )
>
>     + 100
>
> ...
>  
>
>
>     Not having a separation between backend and frontend has always been one
>     of the biggest selling points of the Plone UI. As far as I can tell
>     other CMSes are trying to get rid of that separation for a good reason.
>
> which ones? Others are doing the contextual editing finally but, if they mix
> editing, they'll just end up getting the same theming nightmare we have.
>  
>
>
>     We are about to go into the opposite direction "to make theming easier"
>     (which was the original point of p.a.toolbar if I recall correctly).
>     Though, according to Ramon and what I saw so far theming will become
>     more complicated with p.a.toolbar.
>
> It's not more complicated to theme with plone.app.toolbar. It might be more
> difficult to theme the backend...
>
>
>
>     > * In most of our use cases the client needs specific edit forms (skinned
>     > and layout) so it's common that we need to skin also the backend and the
>     > edit forms layout.
>
>     Same here. Right now I can't imaging to use p.a.toolbar/modals (again)
>     for my customer projects (for UI as well as technical reasons that I
>     pointed out before) and I would really like to see a Plone 5 where I'm
>     not forced to use overlays.
>
> Wow, yikes. Are you sure these customers just aren't too used to the old plone
> way of doing things? Have you tested this on new customers?
>
> So what you're saying is that we should maintain backend css in our themes
> still and then also maintain all the toolbar, modals, etc. Sounds like a really
> bad idea.
>  
>

just to calm down the discussion a bit.

 - nothing really changed in the plan of having plone.app.toolbar in plone 5.

 - it is possible (it always was) to have same toolbar without modals, but this
   will require a bit of work from developer side to make it happen. and when
   i say little i mean you'll have to provide css/js for your theme compiled
   from mockup.

 - plone will still ship with plone.app.toolbar and it is going to be super
   easy to theme it. plone.app.toolbar release is waiting for
   plone.app.contenttypes to be released then you'll have a chance to try
   latest work being done, should happen in matter of days.

 - plonetheme.barceloneta is also rewrite of clientside javascript with
   patterns from mockup (same javascript that is going to be used in
   plone.app.toolbar) and its a nice middle step before we get
   plone.app.toolbar into coredev.

 - plone.app.widgets/toolbar is coming to coredev piece by piece since its
   quite some change and we surely dont want to break tests. this slow
   integration was holding back development of front end theme,
   plonetheme.baceloneta puts us back into track doing work in paralel.

 - if some ppl are confused, please dont be there is no reason. it was just
   comunicated baddly from our side.



--
Rok Garbas - http://www.garbas.si

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Rok Garbas-2 Rok Garbas-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Plone-UI] Plone 5 Theme

In reply to this post by thomas desvenain
Quoting thomas desvenain (2013-11-18 16:36:12)

>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Ramon Navarro Bosch <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>     Mainly for two reasons:
>
>     * In most of our use cases the client prefers no modals ( there is a lot of
>     content edition and they love to see the edit and the view with the same
>     skin )
>
>
> On most of our projects we get the use case where users get write access on few
> folders of the site and only read access on many others.
> Current Plone edit bar is really more suitable for this use case.
>
>  
>
>     * In most of our use cases the client needs specific edit forms (skinned
>     and layout) so it's common that we need to skin also the backend and the
>     edit forms layout.
>
>
> We have the same. We have large extranets where some contributors are almost
> 'unknown', we prefer that they have well skinned edit form, consistent with
> display.
>  
> My opinion is that toolbar is a good option for sites with few editors and a
> lot of visitors, but that current Plone edit bar is better for sites where all
> users are contributors. I hope that the edit bar will remain as an option.
>

separation doesnt really limit you. you can still theme edit form. but it gives
others who don't want to spend +1000eur for developing a theme to have
something that still looks good and without to have to worry breaking something
in the edit form just because customer want something funky in the front page.


--
Rok Garbas - http://www.garbas.si

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Rok Garbas-2 Rok Garbas-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Plone-UI] Plone 5 Theme

In reply to this post by Timo Stollenwerk-2
Quoting Timo Stollenwerk (2013-11-18 16:44:16)

> Am 18.11.2013 16:23, schrieb Ramon Navarro Bosch:
> > Mainly for two reasons:
> >
> > * In most of our use cases the client prefers no modals ( there is a lot
> > of content edition and they love to see the edit and the view with the
> > same skin )
>
> + 100
>
> Not having a separation between backend and frontend has always been one
> of the biggest selling points of the Plone UI. As far as I can tell
> other CMSes are trying to get rid of that separation for a good reason.
>

i think we talked already about this. separation is only from techical point of
view. from UI point of view its shown on the same page.


> We are about to go into the opposite direction "to make theming easier"
> (which was the original point of p.a.toolbar if I recall correctly).
> Though, according to Ramon and what I saw so far theming will become
> more complicated with p.a.toolbar.
>

not sure where you got that. but if you're referring to plonetheme.barceloneta
then that theme is not a regular theme since its built using mockup patterns.
which requires knowledge how to work with patterns.

for theme to work one or two lines of rules will be needed for p.a.toolbar to
work. thats how it was designed.


> > * In most of our use cases the client needs specific edit forms (skinned
> > and layout) so it's common that we need to skin also the backend and the
> > edit forms layout.
>
> Same here. Right now I can't imaging to use p.a.toolbar/modals (again)
> for my customer projects (for UI as well as technical reasons that I
> pointed out before) and I would really like to see a Plone 5 where I'm
> not forced to use overlays.
>

that is going to be possible.



--
Rok Garbas - http://www.garbas.si

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
Timo Stollenwerk-2 Timo Stollenwerk-2
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Plone-UI] Plone 5 Theme

In reply to this post by Nathan Van Gheem-3
Hi Nathan,

Am 18.11.2013 16:54, schrieb Nathan Van Gheem:

>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 9:44 AM, Timo Stollenwerk <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Am 18.11.2013 16:23, schrieb Ramon Navarro Bosch:
>     > Mainly for two reasons:
>     >
>     > * In most of our use cases the client prefers no modals ( there is
>     a lot
>     > of content edition and they love to see the edit and the view with the
>     > same skin )
>
>     + 100
>
> ...
>  
>
>
>     Not having a separation between backend and frontend has always been one
>     of the biggest selling points of the Plone UI. As far as I can tell
>     other CMSes are trying to get rid of that separation for a good reason.
>
> which ones? Others are doing the contextual editing finally but, if they
> mix editing, they'll just end up getting the same theming nightmare we have.

If you don't want a separation of backend/frontend there is no way
around having to integrate those two. If you want the edit overlay to
look like the real page, you have to do the integration on just another
level.

>     We are about to go into the opposite direction "to make theming easier"
>     (which was the original point of p.a.toolbar if I recall correctly).
>     Though, according to Ramon and what I saw so far theming will become
>     more complicated with p.a.toolbar.
>
> It's not more complicated to theme with plone.app.toolbar. It might be
> more difficult to theme the backend...

The rationale for p.a.toolbar was to make theming easier. It seems to me
we are just making one use case easier and another one a lot more
complicated.

>     > * In most of our use cases the client needs specific edit forms
>     (skinned
>     > and layout) so it's common that we need to skin also the backend
>     and the
>     > edit forms layout.
>
>     Same here. Right now I can't imaging to use p.a.toolbar/modals (again)
>     for my customer projects (for UI as well as technical reasons that I
>     pointed out before) and I would really like to see a Plone 5 where I'm
>     not forced to use overlays.
>
> Wow, yikes. Are you sure these customers just aren't too used to the old
> plone way of doing things? Have you tested this on new customers?

No. As I told you long time ago (at sea sprint I think :)), I had a
larger project where we wanted to use a top toolbar and edit forms
overlays and failed miserably, both on a technical and on a UI level.

In the end we had to remove all overlays because we could not handle it.
Maybe technology has moved on since then and the people working on it
today are a lot smarter than we were back then...

> So what you're saying is that we should maintain backend css in our
> themes still and then also maintain all the toolbar, modals, etc. Sounds
> like a really bad idea.

I'm just saying that we might want to take a step back and should look
at what our objectives for p.a.toolbar were. Then we should compare the
new solution with what we already have. Changing things always comes at
a cost (developer, integrators have to adapt, existing sites have to be
migrated, old use cases might not work any longer, etc). If the new
solution does not offer a significant advantage over the old system, we
should just not do it.

Timo

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
_______________________________________________
Plone-developers mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers
123