Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

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Eric Steele Eric Steele
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Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

Plone 5.0b2 is available for pre-release testing at
http://dist.plone.org/release/5.0b2-pending/versions.cfg

Changelog to follow.

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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

Great! I tested it with two large project each with many tests and found no unexpected issues.
I did not tests the upgrade-steps since the projects are currently in dev-only mode.

Philip

> Am 15.05.2015 um 21:51 schrieb Eric Steele <[hidden email]>:
>
> Plone 5.0b2 is available for pre-release testing at
> http://dist.plone.org/release/5.0b2-pending/versions.cfg
>
> Changelog to follow.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers

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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

Now I also tested the upgrade steps and everything seems fine.
Philip

> Am 16.05.2015 um 09:45 schrieb Philip Bauer <[hidden email]>:
>
> Great! I tested it with two large project each with many tests and found no unexpected issues.
> I did not tests the upgrade-steps since the projects are currently in dev-only mode.
>
> Philip
>
>> Am 15.05.2015 um 21:51 schrieb Eric Steele <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Plone 5.0b2 is available for pre-release testing at
>> http://dist.plone.org/release/5.0b2-pending/versions.cfg
>>
>> Changelog to follow.
>>

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Ramon Navarro Bosch Ramon Navarro Bosch
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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

Me also tested on two prod sites with upgrade steps, everything seems ok 

El dt., 19 maig 2015 a les 10:16, Philip Bauer (<[hidden email]>) va escriure:
Now I also tested the upgrade steps and everything seems fine.
Philip

> Am 16.05.2015 um 09:45 schrieb Philip Bauer <[hidden email]>:
>
> Great! I tested it with two large project each with many tests and found no unexpected issues.
> I did not tests the upgrade-steps since the projects are currently in dev-only mode.
>
> Philip
>
>> Am 15.05.2015 um 21:51 schrieb Eric Steele <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Plone 5.0b2 is available for pre-release testing at
>> http://dist.plone.org/release/5.0b2-pending/versions.cfg
>>
>> Changelog to follow.
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

In reply to this post by Eric Steele
On 5/15/15 3:51 PM, Eric Steele wrote:
> Plone 5.0b2 is available for pre-release testing at
> http://dist.plone.org/release/5.0b2-pending/versions.cfg

Great! Tested and working with Plock
(https://github.com/plock/pins/blob/master/plone-5-0).

Very, very cool release. Thanks Eric & everyone for all the hard work.
This will definitely push us "over the hump", in terms of incentivizing
everyone to update existing add-ons for Plone 5, etc.

Alex

>
> Changelog to follow.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>



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Steve McMahon Steve McMahon
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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

In reply to this post by Eric Steele
I created a Unified Installer with it, and it worked with no problems.

So, there are no version regressions, as that would have shown up in the process.

On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Eric Steele <[hidden email]> wrote:
Plone 5.0b2 is available for pre-release testing at
http://dist.plone.org/release/5.0b2-pending/versions.cfg

Changelog to follow.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

Since the feedback has been good can we please move 5.0b2 out of pending?
Philip

> Am 21.05.2015 um 00:35 schrieb Steve McMahon <[hidden email]>:
>
> I created a Unified Installer with it, and it worked with no problems.
>
> So, there are no version regressions, as that would have shown up in the process.
>
> On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Eric Steele <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Plone 5.0b2 is available for pre-release testing at
> http://dist.plone.org/release/5.0b2-pending/versions.cfg
>
> Changelog to follow.
>

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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

In reply to this post by Eric Steele
Released.

On 15 May 2015, at 15:51, Eric Steele wrote:

> Plone 5.0b2 is available for pre-release testing at
> http://dist.plone.org/release/5.0b2-pending/versions.cfg
>
> Changelog to follow.

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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

In reply to this post by Eric Steele
I already found some issues; where do I have to open the tickets?

also, can someone me tell how to change the toolbar to an horizontal
one? every time I ask someone says "it's on the CSS" but nobody tells me
what exactly I have to change.

sorry for being a PITA but the UX with the vertical toolbar still sucks
in many ways and is pretty obvious to me: all the information that was
previously available without doing nothing now is one or two clicks
away... are we (Andreas and I) the only two persons that see this?

I want to write my thoughts since last year but I haven't had time to do
so, may be in two weeks.

best regards

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Nathan Van Gheem-3 Nathan Van Gheem-3
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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing



On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
I already found some issues; where do I have to open the tickets?
 

also, can someone me tell how to change the toolbar to an horizontal
one? every time I ask someone says "it's on the CSS" but nobody tells me
what exactly I have to change.
Click the plone icon to total text. Click upper top left to move from side to top.

I think we need a control panel entry to set this on the site without using the theme.

here are the classes:

- plone-toolbar-top plone-toolbar-top-expanded
- plone-toolbar-top plone-toolbar-top-default
- plone-toolbar-left plone-toolbar-left-expanded
- plone-toolbar-left plone-toolbar-left-default
 

sorry for being a PITA but the UX with the vertical toolbar still sucks
in many ways and is pretty obvious to me: all the information that was
previously available without doing nothing now is one or two clicks
away... are we (Andreas and I) the only two persons that see this?
Yes, the way you go about things can be annoying and momentum killing but you can be helpful too.

No, you're not the only one who notices. I also mentioned it during the UI/UX meeting. Most everyone that uses it knows it needs tweaking. There just isn't an obvious best way to do it where the toolbar actually fits decent widths when on top. If you know the perfect way to plan out the toolbar buttons, please share.
 

I want to write my thoughts since last year but I haven't had time to do
so, may be in two weeks.

best regards

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--
Nathan Van Gheem
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Wildcard Corp

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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing


On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Nathan Van Gheem <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
I already found some issues; where do I have to open the tickets?
 

also, can someone me tell how to change the toolbar to an horizontal
one? every time I ask someone says "it's on the CSS" but nobody tells me
what exactly I have to change.
Click the plone icon to total text. Click upper top left to move from side to top.

I think we need a control panel entry to set this on the site without using the theme.

here are the classes:

- plone-toolbar-top plone-toolbar-top-expanded
- plone-toolbar-top plone-toolbar-top-default
- plone-toolbar-left plone-toolbar-left-expanded
- plone-toolbar-left plone-toolbar-left-default
 

sorry for being a PITA but the UX with the vertical toolbar still sucks
in many ways and is pretty obvious to me: all the information that was
previously available without doing nothing now is one or two clicks
away... are we (Andreas and I) the only two persons that see this?
Yes, the way you go about things can be annoying and momentum killing but you can be helpful too.

No, you're not the only one who notices. I also mentioned it during the UI/UX meeting. Most everyone that uses it knows it needs tweaking. There just isn't an obvious best way to do it where the toolbar actually fits decent widths when on top. If you know the perfect way to plan out the toolbar buttons, please share.
 

I want to write my thoughts since last year but I haven't had time to do
so, may be in two weeks.

best regards

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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Solutions Architect
Wildcard Corp



--
Nathan Van Gheem
Solutions Architect
Wildcard Corp

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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

In reply to this post by Nathan Van Gheem-3

One way it might work better on the side is as an accordion menu where the currently open menu is sticky. That way you won't need to click to get back to a commonly used submenu.
We shouldn't be using hover menus and we really shouldn't be using hover menus that popout sideways

http://uxmovement.com/navigation/why-hover-menus-do-users-more-harm-than-good/

Doesn't really help laying out the top menu though. But perhaps the words can go under the icons or just get rid of the icons completely when the words are there.

On 26 May 2015 00:00, "Nathan Van Gheem" <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
I already found some issues; where do I have to open the tickets?
 

also, can someone me tell how to change the toolbar to an horizontal
one? every time I ask someone says "it's on the CSS" but nobody tells me
what exactly I have to change.
Click the plone icon to total text. Click upper top left to move from side to top.

I think we need a control panel entry to set this on the site without using the theme.

here are the classes:

- plone-toolbar-top plone-toolbar-top-expanded
- plone-toolbar-top plone-toolbar-top-default
- plone-toolbar-left plone-toolbar-left-expanded
- plone-toolbar-left plone-toolbar-left-default
 

sorry for being a PITA but the UX with the vertical toolbar still sucks
in many ways and is pretty obvious to me: all the information that was
previously available without doing nothing now is one or two clicks
away... are we (Andreas and I) the only two persons that see this?
Yes, the way you go about things can be annoying and momentum killing but you can be helpful too.

No, you're not the only one who notices. I also mentioned it during the UI/UX meeting. Most everyone that uses it knows it needs tweaking. There just isn't an obvious best way to do it where the toolbar actually fits decent widths when on top. If you know the perfect way to plan out the toolbar buttons, please share.
 

I want to write my thoughts since last year but I haven't had time to do
so, may be in two weeks.

best regards

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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--
Nathan Van Gheem
Solutions Architect
Wildcard Corp

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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

In reply to this post by Nathan Van Gheem-3
On 05/25/2015 02:00 PM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
> https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues

HV> thanks! the first issue was already reported:

https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues/411

> Click the plone icon to total text. Click upper top left to move from
> side to top.

HV> that was awesome! thanks!

> I think we need a control panel entry to set this on the site without
> using the theme.

HV> +1

> Yes, the way you go about things can be annoying and momentum killing
> but you can be helpful too.

HV> sorry, Nathan; I don't want to annoy anyone and I don't want to kill
your momentum... but at some point we need to face reality and we better
do it before the final release. the horizontal toolbar should be the
default, IMO; I haven't tested it in depth, but it has to be better than
the vertical one.

> No, you're not the only one who notices. I also mentioned it during the
> UI/UX meeting. Most everyone that uses it knows it needs tweaking. There
> just isn't an obvious best way to do it where the toolbar actually fits
> decent widths when on top. If you know the perfect way to plan out the
> toolbar buttons, please share.

HV> no, I have no idea on how to solve it; I'm not an UI/usability
expert but the issues the vertical toolbar causes are screaming at me
every time I have tested Plone 5.

the one thing I want to bring back here is that, IMO, we made a mistake
by skipping the 4.4 release; Plone 5 brings many UI changes that are not
tested with real users before including them on the core and we are
risking here too much.

releasing faster with few changes and making some of these changes
optional for power users to test first, give us feedback earlier so we
can fix broken ideas faster also.

that's the way we went with Diazo and Dexterity and it proved to pay.

having said that, I can tell you that Plone 5 is looking pretty fine
now; last time I tested it was one of the earlier alpha releases and can
see a difference here.

thank you very much for the hard work you guys have done!

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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

HV,

Well, this particular issue isn't momentum killing. We are aware of it--just no one has figured a decent solution yet.
More people talking about it and thinking about it is helpful though :)

I'm not sure I agree with you on the vertical. I actually enjoy using the left side variant.

Dylan,

We aren't using hover menus. You need to click to open.

Yes, doing something with the icons could work though!

The menu isn't really responsive right now either. No matter way, when on mobile devices, it'll need to be swipe out on the left or right I think for mobile.


-Nathan

On May 25, 2015 2:15 PM, "Hector Velarde" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 05/25/2015 02:00 PM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues

HV> thanks! the first issue was already reported:

https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues/411

Click the plone icon to total text. Click upper top left to move from
side to top.

HV> that was awesome! thanks!

I think we need a control panel entry to set this on the site without
using the theme.

HV> +1

Yes, the way you go about things can be annoying and momentum killing
but you can be helpful too.

HV> sorry, Nathan; I don't want to annoy anyone and I don't want to kill your momentum... but at some point we need to face reality and we better do it before the final release. the horizontal toolbar should be the default, IMO; I haven't tested it in depth, but it has to be better than the vertical one.

No, you're not the only one who notices. I also mentioned it during the
UI/UX meeting. Most everyone that uses it knows it needs tweaking. There
just isn't an obvious best way to do it where the toolbar actually fits
decent widths when on top. If you know the perfect way to plan out the
toolbar buttons, please share.

HV> no, I have no idea on how to solve it; I'm not an UI/usability expert but the issues the vertical toolbar causes are screaming at me every time I have tested Plone 5.

the one thing I want to bring back here is that, IMO, we made a mistake by skipping the 4.4 release; Plone 5 brings many UI changes that are not tested with real users before including them on the core and we are risking here too much.

releasing faster with few changes and making some of these changes optional for power users to test first, give us feedback earlier so we can fix broken ideas faster also.

that's the way we went with Diazo and Dexterity and it proved to pay.

having said that, I can tell you that Plone 5 is looking pretty fine now; last time I tested it was one of the earlier alpha releases and can see a difference here.

thank you very much for the hard work you guys have done!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

On 05/25/2015 04:26 PM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
> I'm not sure I agree with you on the vertical. I actually enjoy using
> the left side variant.

HV> that's exactly my point; we can't ship with some feature just
because core developers "enjoy it".

the UX/usability issues are there, just a quick list:

* to know which user is logged in I need to move the mouse over the user
icon; previously it was clearly visible without any action
* to know by who and when an item was modified I need to move the mouse
over the content info icon and click on it; previously it was clearly
visible without any action
* the same applies with the lock icon with is worst, because if an item
is locked I must now it before I click on edit
* to know the state of an item I need to move the mouse over the state
icon; previously it was clearly visible without any action
* the colors used for the state were changed from previous Plone
versions and I think that is a bad idea
* the more options menu item seems like a place to put all other stuff
we didn't knew where to place...

the list will grow as soon as I have time to document this.

IMO, horizontal toolbars are better suited for global options while
vertical ones are better suited for local options. just look at how
Google, Twitter and Facebook use them.

the case of Facebook is really interesting because they have changed
they user interface dozens of times before and they ended up by bringing
back the horizontal toolbar.

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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing



On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 05/25/2015 04:26 PM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with you on the vertical. I actually enjoy using
the left side variant.

HV> that's exactly my point; we can't ship with some feature just because core developers "enjoy it".
By enjoy it, I mean it's easier to manage content with.
 

the UX/usability issues are there, just a quick list:

* to know which user is logged in I need to move the mouse over the user icon; previously it was clearly visible without any action
I hope you know who you are :)

* to know by who and when an item was modified I need to move the mouse over the content info icon and click on it; previously it was clearly visible without any action
Yes, this has been identified as needing a fix. The history menu item is terrible right now.
 
* the same applies with the lock icon with is worst, because if an item is locked I must now it before I click on edit
Yes. Until recently locking didn't even work on Plone 5 so of course, the menu didn't take account for it. Needs a fix.
 
* to know the state of an item I need to move the mouse over the state icon; previously it was clearly visible without any action
Well, that's if you are in icon mode and not showing text. 
 
* the colors used for the state were changed from previous Plone versions and I think that is a bad idea
Why? Just because it's different doesn't mean it's wrong.
 
* the more options menu item seems like a place to put all other stuff we didn't knew where to place...
Yes, this needs a fix/change.
 

the list will grow as soon as I have time to document this.

IMO, horizontal toolbars are better suited for global options while vertical ones are better suited for local options. just look at how Google, Twitter and Facebook use them.

the case of Facebook is really interesting because they have changed they user interface dozens of times before and they ended up by bringing back the horizontal toolbar.
 
Yes, we know the menu needs work. We are not going to get a plone 5 final release the way it is right now. So before you start spamming us with things we are already aware of, please give some of the designers a chance to redo parts of it instead of just continually complaining about stuff and requiring people like me to take time to respond to it. Again, yes, we know the menu has problems.


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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

On 05/25/2015 05:03 PM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
> Yes, we know the menu needs work. We are not going to get a plone 5
> final release the way it is right now. So before you start spamming us
> with things we are already aware of, please give some of the designers a

HV> were is the list of issues you are already aware of so I don't
continue spamming you with things you already are aware of?

> chance to redo parts of it instead of just continually complaining about
> stuff and requiring people like me to take time to respond to it. Again,
> yes, we know the menu has problems.

HV> I hope "complaining" (AKA "report bugs") is still a valid way to
contribute to Plone development.

going back to my own business as that was momentum killing also ;-)

best regards


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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

Just saying...

I've asked many people to look at it already in the UI/UX team meeting. It takes time to deal with your messages. I'm sure you'd prefer I do not ignore them.

I think if you contributed to https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues it'd be more helpful and not just feel like complaining. There are probably 5 or 6 issues related to it. Perhaps you could consolidate all the issues into one, add in your missing ones and make a checklist?

And yes, complaining is still a valid way to contribute. Hector, I think you are aware of better ways to contribute though.

We'd be better off coordinating these issues: https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 3:10 PM, Hector Velarde <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 05/25/2015 05:03 PM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
Yes, we know the menu needs work. We are not going to get a plone 5
final release the way it is right now. So before you start spamming us
with things we are already aware of, please give some of the designers a

HV> were is the list of issues you are already aware of so I don't continue spamming you with things you already are aware of?

chance to redo parts of it instead of just continually complaining about
stuff and requiring people like me to take time to respond to it. Again,
yes, we know the menu has problems.

HV> I hope "complaining" (AKA "report bugs") is still a valid way to contribute to Plone development.

going back to my own business as that was momentum killing also ;-)

best regards




--
Nathan Van Gheem
Solutions Architect
Wildcard Corp

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Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

In reply to this post by Nathan Van Gheem-3

> On 26 May 2015, at 2:26 am, Nathan Van Gheem <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> HV,
>
> Well, this particular issue isn't momentum killing. We are aware of it--just no one has figured a decent solution yet.
> More people talking about it and thinking about it is helpful though :)
>
> I'm not sure I agree with you on the vertical. I actually enjoy using the left side variant.
>
> Dylan,
>
> We aren't using hover menus. You need to click to open.

sorry you are right, its not hover. however one issue with a vertical menu is that the popout now requires to you go down, click then go back up. You end up travelling a lot and doing a uturn with your mouse which isn't so nice.
Looks like hectors points are mostly about making current status visible.
I have a couple of ideas which I'll find the right tickets to add them to but quickly (no need to respond).
- One option would be to change it from a multiple submenus to a single extra ribbon/menu that you can expand and keep open. So the menu has 3 modes. icons, icons text, icons, text and extra menu. That could solve some of hectors concerns of not seeing stuff and also my concern of the mouse uturn.
  - It does however create another problem of having still too much stuff in this combined extra menu. I think we can aid in that by getting rid of the display menu. I believe this should now be a popup with a post request. We see a lot of issues around people not understanding display enough and I think it needs more text and explanation around it which we can do in a popup. I think the same is probably true of the state menu. I think its something that you don't do lightly and should be a popup. If you want to do it in bulk you can do it via contents.
- the other option is an open close accordion type menu. More similar to normal side navigation. There is a reason side nav is not popout but rather open/close. If the menu remembers which are open and closed you can effectively configure the menu to keep visible parts you are using often such as the add menu or the context status.


>
> Yes, doing something with the icons could work though!
>
> The menu isn't really responsive right now either. No matter way, when on mobile devices, it'll need to be swipe out on the left or right I think for mobile.
>
>
>
> -Nathan
>
> On May 25, 2015 2:15 PM, "Hector Velarde" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 05/25/2015 02:00 PM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
> https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues
>
> HV> thanks! the first issue was already reported:
>
> https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues/411
>
> Click the plone icon to total text. Click upper top left to move from
> side to top.
>
> HV> that was awesome! thanks!
>
> I think we need a control panel entry to set this on the site without
> using the theme.
>
> HV> +1
>
> Yes, the way you go about things can be annoying and momentum killing
> but you can be helpful too.
>
> HV> sorry, Nathan; I don't want to annoy anyone and I don't want to kill your momentum... but at some point we need to face reality and we better do it before the final release. the horizontal toolbar should be the default, IMO; I haven't tested it in depth, but it has to be better than the vertical one.
>
> No, you're not the only one who notices. I also mentioned it during the
> UI/UX meeting. Most everyone that uses it knows it needs tweaking. There
> just isn't an obvious best way to do it where the toolbar actually fits
> decent widths when on top. If you know the perfect way to plan out the
> toolbar buttons, please share.
>
> HV> no, I have no idea on how to solve it; I'm not an UI/usability expert but the issues the vertical toolbar causes are screaming at me every time I have tested Plone 5.
>
> the one thing I want to bring back here is that, IMO, we made a mistake by skipping the 4.4 release; Plone 5 brings many UI changes that are not tested with real users before including them on the core and we are risking here too much.
>
> releasing faster with few changes and making some of these changes optional for power users to test first, give us feedback earlier so we can fix broken ideas faster also.
>
> that's the way we went with Diazo and Dexterity and it proved to pay.
>
> having said that, I can tell you that Plone 5 is looking pretty fine now; last time I tested it was one of the earlier alpha releases and can see a difference here.
>
> thank you very much for the hard work you guys have done!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y_______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers


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Re: Plone 5.0b2-pending available for testing

FYI, I just created this ticket: https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues/529

to track toolbar related items/issues.

On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 10:34 PM, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 26 May 2015, at 2:26 am, Nathan Van Gheem <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> HV,
>
> Well, this particular issue isn't momentum killing. We are aware of it--just no one has figured a decent solution yet.
> More people talking about it and thinking about it is helpful though :)
>
> I'm not sure I agree with you on the vertical. I actually enjoy using the left side variant.
>
> Dylan,
>
> We aren't using hover menus. You need to click to open.

sorry you are right, its not hover. however one issue with a vertical menu is that the popout now requires to you go down, click then go back up. You end up travelling a lot and doing a uturn with your mouse which isn't so nice.
Looks like hectors points are mostly about making current status visible.
I have a couple of ideas which I'll find the right tickets to add them to but quickly (no need to respond).
- One option would be to change it from a multiple submenus to a single extra ribbon/menu that you can expand and keep open. So the menu has 3 modes. icons, icons text, icons, text and extra menu. That could solve some of hectors concerns of not seeing stuff and also my concern of the mouse uturn.
  - It does however create another problem of having still too much stuff in this combined extra menu. I think we can aid in that by getting rid of the display menu. I believe this should now be a popup with a post request. We see a lot of issues around people not understanding display enough and I think it needs more text and explanation around it which we can do in a popup. I think the same is probably true of the state menu. I think its something that you don't do lightly and should be a popup. If you want to do it in bulk you can do it via contents.
- the other option is an open close accordion type menu. More similar to normal side navigation. There is a reason side nav is not popout but rather open/close. If the menu remembers which are open and closed you can effectively configure the menu to keep visible parts you are using often such as the add menu or the context status.


>
> Yes, doing something with the icons could work though!
>
> The menu isn't really responsive right now either. No matter way, when on mobile devices, it'll need to be swipe out on the left or right I think for mobile.
>
>
>
> -Nathan
>
> On May 25, 2015 2:15 PM, "Hector Velarde" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 05/25/2015 02:00 PM, Nathan Van Gheem wrote:
> https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues
>
> HV> thanks! the first issue was already reported:
>
> https://github.com/plone/Products.CMFPlone/issues/411
>
> Click the plone icon to total text. Click upper top left to move from
> side to top.
>
> HV> that was awesome! thanks!
>
> I think we need a control panel entry to set this on the site without
> using the theme.
>
> HV> +1
>
> Yes, the way you go about things can be annoying and momentum killing
> but you can be helpful too.
>
> HV> sorry, Nathan; I don't want to annoy anyone and I don't want to kill your momentum... but at some point we need to face reality and we better do it before the final release. the horizontal toolbar should be the default, IMO; I haven't tested it in depth, but it has to be better than the vertical one.
>
> No, you're not the only one who notices. I also mentioned it during the
> UI/UX meeting. Most everyone that uses it knows it needs tweaking. There
> just isn't an obvious best way to do it where the toolbar actually fits
> decent widths when on top. If you know the perfect way to plan out the
> toolbar buttons, please share.
>
> HV> no, I have no idea on how to solve it; I'm not an UI/usability expert but the issues the vertical toolbar causes are screaming at me every time I have tested Plone 5.
>
> the one thing I want to bring back here is that, IMO, we made a mistake by skipping the 4.4 release; Plone 5 brings many UI changes that are not tested with real users before including them on the core and we are risking here too much.
>
> releasing faster with few changes and making some of these changes optional for power users to test first, give us feedback earlier so we can fix broken ideas faster also.
>
> that's the way we went with Diazo and Dexterity and it proved to pay.
>
> having said that, I can tell you that Plone 5 is looking pretty fine now; last time I tested it was one of the earlier alpha releases and can see a difference here.
>
> thank you very much for the hard work you guys have done!
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y_______________________________________________
> Plone-developers mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/plone-developers




--
Nathan Van Gheem
Solutions Architect
Wildcard Corp

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
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