Austin fiasco

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Matt Hamilton Matt Hamilton
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Austin fiasco

Mark,
   What is the best way of us handling this? That article makes some  
harsh comments about Plone. If Plone were some large corporate I would  
imagine that lawyers would be swinging into action now.

Do we want to publish some kind of official statement in response? Or  
privately contact that newspaper and ask them to retract their  
comment. It is a quote though so I don't know legal standing. Or do we  
just keep our head down and not draw attention to it?

http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/local-firm-to-start-city-web-site-redesign-129437.html

-Matt



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Steve McMahon Steve McMahon
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Re: Austin fiasco

As a former newspaper brat, I'll just say that this falls far short of what's needed to prove product libel, so there's no legal standing.

Also, IMHO, this makes Austin look a whole lot worse than Plone. It looks like a place where the web techs need government assistance.

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Matt Hamilton <[hidden email]> wrote:
Mark,
 What is the best way of us handling this? That article makes some harsh comments about Plone. If Plone were some large corporate I would imagine that lawyers would be swinging into action now.

Do we want to publish some kind of official statement in response? Or privately contact that newspaper and ask them to retract their comment. It is a quote though so I don't know legal standing. Or do we just keep our head down and not draw attention to it?

http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/local-firm-to-start-city-web-site-redesign-129437.html

-Matt



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Mark A Corum Mark A Corum
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Re: Austin fiasco

Keep away from this one - you don't want any of it getting on your
shoes.  This has nothing to do with Plone being deficient, and
everything to do with would be politicos wanting to seem sensitive by
buying locally.

Anything we could possibly say has already been said by residents of
the community - read the comments to this article if you have any
doubt:

<http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/cityhall/entries/2009/12/17/city_hires_firm_for_first_stag.html?cxntfid=blogs_city_beat>

The press lives by maximizing the number of people looking at their
pages.  Anything you do to go after them just adds eyeballs.  Its the
perfect example of the old adage - "Never wrestle with a pig - you
both get dirty - and the pig likes it."

Austin is spending $357,000 to analyse what their website needs in
order to succeed.  I'll be interesting in seeing the outcome of that -
as well as the price tag of the actual site when it goes out for bids.

Mark



On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Steve McMahon <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As a former newspaper brat, I'll just say that this falls far short of
> what's needed to prove product libel, so there's no legal standing.
> Also, IMHO, this makes Austin look a whole lot worse than Plone. It looks
> like a place where the web techs need government assistance.
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:13 PM, Matt Hamilton <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>>  What is the best way of us handling this? That article makes some harsh
>> comments about Plone. If Plone were some large corporate I would imagine
>> that lawyers would be swinging into action now.
>>
>> Do we want to publish some kind of official statement in response? Or
>> privately contact that newspaper and ask them to retract their comment. It
>> is a quote though so I don't know legal standing. Or do we just keep our
>> head down and not draw attention to it?
>>
>>
>> http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/local-firm-to-start-city-web-site-redesign-129437.html
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Evangelism mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/evangelism
>
>

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Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
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Re: Austin fiasco

In reply to this post by Matt Hamilton
I think what it shows is the reason its very very hard selling to  
governments. All it takes is one person to kick up a stink like a  
bitter vendor and the governments procurement processes become a  
politcal issue, fairly or unfairly.
This is why governments avoid taking risks even when its clearly a  
better solution. For anyone thats tried to sell to government and  
wondered why they have these really long painful tendering,  
preselected vendors etc that "attempt" to avoid any vendor/technology  
bias, this is why. You won't often find tenders that state a  
technology specifically unless its "beyond reproach" like "microsoft".

My question is, what was in the tender requirements that a Plone  
solution was going to cost 750K?

Another take home idea from this: if your government is putting out  
tenders that exclude opensource and Plone specifically, creating waves  
can get results. Especially if you can link it to jobs going elsewhere.


On 18/12/2009, at 6:13 PM, Matt Hamilton wrote:

> Mark,
>  What is the best way of us handling this? That article makes some  
> harsh comments about Plone. If Plone were some large corporate I  
> would imagine that lawyers would be swinging into action now.
>
> Do we want to publish some kind of official statement in response?  
> Or privately contact that newspaper and ask them to retract their  
> comment. It is a quote though so I don't know legal standing. Or do  
> we just keep our head down and not draw attention to it?
>
> http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/local-firm-to-start-city-web-site-redesign-129437.html
>
> -Matt
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Evangelism mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/evangelism


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Dylan Jay Dylan Jay
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Re: Austin fiasco


On 21/12/2009, at 12:28 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:

> ...
> Another take home idea from this: if your government is putting out  
> tenders that exclude opensource and Plone specifically, creating  
> waves can get results. Especially if you can link it to jobs going  
> elsewhere.

My use of the words "creating waves" is a little too strong for what I  
meant. The way in which we and others in opensource here have done  
this is to talk to those in government about removing requirements in  
their procurement processes that specifically excluded opensource  
solutions. Government to some extent have been responsive to this.  
This has taken a long time and is really just about helping them  
understand that other models exist and they can get significant  
benefits by considering them fairly along with their existing  
solutions. Governments respond to the concept of openness and fairness  
(and some may respond to the concept of local jobs but that hasn't  
been our experience). They respond precisely because they want to  
avoid what happened in Austin.
I didn't mean to suggest what those Austin guys did was the right way  
of going about it. If the tender has been written it's generally too  
late to do anything.


>
> On 18/12/2009, at 6:13 PM, Matt Hamilton wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>> What is the best way of us handling this? That article makes some  
>> harsh comments about Plone. If Plone were some large corporate I  
>> would imagine that lawyers would be swinging into action now.
>>
>> Do we want to publish some kind of official statement in response?  
>> Or privately contact that newspaper and ask them to retract their  
>> comment. It is a quote though so I don't know legal standing. Or do  
>> we just keep our head down and not draw attention to it?
>>
>> http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/local-firm-to-start-city-web-site-redesign-129437.html
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Evangelism mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/evangelism
>


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natea natea
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Re: Austin fiasco

I don't know if this list is still alive/active, but I just came across this post and thought it was interesting to share how the City of Austin has evolved their thinking about a CMS solution:

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 21/12/2009, at 12:28 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:

...
Another take home idea from this: if your government is putting out tenders that exclude opensource and Plone specifically, creating waves can get results. Especially if you can link it to jobs going elsewhere.

My use of the words "creating waves" is a little too strong for what I meant. The way in which we and others in opensource here have done this is to talk to those in government about removing requirements in their procurement processes that specifically excluded opensource solutions. Government to some extent have been responsive to this. This has taken a long time and is really just about helping them understand that other models exist and they can get significant benefits by considering them fairly along with their existing solutions. Governments respond to the concept of openness and fairness (and some may respond to the concept of local jobs but that hasn't been our experience). They respond precisely because they want to avoid what happened in Austin.
I didn't mean to suggest what those Austin guys did was the right way of going about it. If the tender has been written it's generally too late to do anything.




On 18/12/2009, at 6:13 PM, Matt Hamilton wrote:

Mark,
What is the best way of us handling this? That article makes some harsh comments about Plone. If Plone were some large corporate I would imagine that lawyers would be swinging into action now.

Do we want to publish some kind of official statement in response? Or privately contact that newspaper and ask them to retract their comment. It is a quote though so I don't know legal standing. Or do we just keep our head down and not draw attention to it?

http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/local-firm-to-start-city-web-site-redesign-129437.html

-Matt



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T. Kim Nguyen-2 T. Kim Nguyen-2
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Re: Austin fiasco

Thanks Nate :) Yeah, we moved almost all the lists and discussion over to https://community.plone.org. Do you want to post this link there and start a discussion thread?

Kim

On Jan 24, 2018, at 8:20 PM, Nate Aune <[hidden email]> wrote:

I don't know if this list is still alive/active, but I just came across this post and thought it was interesting to share how the City of Austin has evolved their thinking about a CMS solution:

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Dylan Jay <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 21/12/2009, at 12:28 PM, Dylan Jay wrote:

...
Another take home idea from this: if your government is putting out tenders that exclude opensource and Plone specifically, creating waves can get results. Especially if you can link it to jobs going elsewhere.

My use of the words "creating waves" is a little too strong for what I meant. The way in which we and others in opensource here have done this is to talk to those in government about removing requirements in their procurement processes that specifically excluded opensource solutions. Government to some extent have been responsive to this. This has taken a long time and is really just about helping them understand that other models exist and they can get significant benefits by considering them fairly along with their existing solutions. Governments respond to the concept of openness and fairness (and some may respond to the concept of local jobs but that hasn't been our experience). They respond precisely because they want to avoid what happened in Austin.
I didn't mean to suggest what those Austin guys did was the right way of going about it. If the tender has been written it's generally too late to do anything.




On 18/12/2009, at 6:13 PM, Matt Hamilton wrote:

Mark,
What is the best way of us handling this? That article makes some harsh comments about Plone. If Plone were some large corporate I would imagine that lawyers would be swinging into action now.

Do we want to publish some kind of official statement in response? Or privately contact that newspaper and ask them to retract their comment. It is a quote though so I don't know legal standing. Or do we just keep our head down and not draw attention to it?

http://www.statesman.com/news/texas/local-firm-to-start-city-web-site-redesign-129437.html

-Matt



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