Anybody with autopackage experience?

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Alexander Limi Alexander Limi
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Anybody with autopackage experience?

Hi all,

Does anybody out there have experience with AutoPackage?

http://autopackage.org

I'm looking to simplify the Plone experience on Linux for the absolute  
Linux newbies, ie. not the people that are already comfortable with and  
trust their packaging systems to not fsck up Plone - but the people that  
know next to nothing about Linux, but would like to host their Plone  
instances on it instead of buying a Windows license to set up a dedicated  
Plone server for their company or similar. Because the quality of the  
packaging systems vary wildly when it comes to packaging Plone properly,  
I'd like to see a single solution that will always work as long as you're  
on Linux.

If you have any experience using AutoPackage, I'd love to hear from you.

And if you're interested in building/maintaining a Plone autopackage, I  
want to buy you a beer. ;)

--
_____________________________________________________________________

      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
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Alexander Limi · http://limi.net

Alan Milligan Alan Milligan
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Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

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Alexander Limi wrote:

> And if you're interested in building/maintaining a Plone autopackage, I  
> want to buy you a beer.  ;)
>

We already do this and much more at https://linux.last-bastion.net.  So
far, nobody in the Plone community's shown much enthusiasm for package
managers at all.

Alan
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Kapil Thangavelu-2 Kapil Thangavelu-2
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Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

Alan Milligan wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Alexander Limi wrote:
>
>
>>And if you're interested in building/maintaining a Plone autopackage, I  
>>want to buy you a beer.  ;)
>>
>
>
> We already do this and much more at https://linux.last-bastion.net.  So
> far, nobody in the Plone community's shown much enthusiasm for package
> managers at all.
>

plone's deployed on many platforms, windows, *nix, osx and there's a
huge difference between a package manager for a single distribution of
linux, and using something which will be usable more generically like
autopackage for *nix. iotw. i don't want to have switch distributions to
use plone.

-kapil


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Alexander Limi Alexander Limi
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Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

In reply to this post by Alan Milligan
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:05:43 -0800, Alan Milligan  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> We already do this and much more at https://linux.last-bastion.net.  So
> far, nobody in the Plone community's shown much enthusiasm for package
> managers at all.

Because nobody is interested in switching to Random Distribution X when  
they already have it installed and working.

*plays the "don't let this thread be a packaging system discussion" card*

I'm specifically asking for people with experience with autopackage.  
Comments telling me that $DISTRO has a working package management system  
with Plone doesn't help. ;)

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      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
_____________________________________________________________________

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Alexander Limi · http://limi.net

Kamal Gill-2 Kamal Gill-2
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Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

In reply to this post by Kapil Thangavelu-2
plone's deployed on many platforms, windows, *nix, osx and there's a huge difference between a package manager for a single distribution of linux, and using something which will be usable more generically like autopackage for *nix. iotw. i don't want to have switch distributions to use plone.

+1. 
What would be great (and probably wishful thinking) is to have a single Plone installer for the platforms mentioned above.  I've successfully built a Plone installer for OS X, and I've investigated products that would allow a single cross-platform installer to be built for Plone.  The product I've discovered that is closest to achieving this objective is InstallAnywhere by ZeroG (now Macrovision).  I would like to take a stab at building a universal installer (--good luck, right?--), or at least settle for one that would cover *nix platforms (linux, os x, solaris, bsd, etc.) on Intel-compatible processors.

Any thoughts?

 - Kamal
Alan Milligan Alan Milligan
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Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

In reply to this post by Alexander Limi
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Since you asked, BastionLinux is distro-agnostic for any RPM-based
distro.  It integrates with the auto-updating tools of both commercial
Linux vendors.

It is an amazingly time-consuming task to package and maintain the
variable-quality stack that is necessary for an enterprise Plone deployment.

It in fact only makes commercial sense, when ISV's recognise the
economic benefits of a Plone SOE and get behind it.  Even Plone
Foundation appears more interested in fund raising selling tee-shirts
and beer mugs than attaching themselves to the revenue streams of such a
proven and well-understood business model.

Should anyone be contemplating your generous 'beer' offer, they're
probably on smack.

Alan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
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iD8DBQFDe88dCfroLk4EZpkRAr3RAKCYnuFbKzbdCCgbgzcwwLTo55gMKACg2XEl
e3K0e+MDMLy14ocxp1cGjtU=
=dx2C
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


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Alexander Limi Alexander Limi
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Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:30:21 -0800, Alan Milligan  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Should anyone be contemplating your generous 'beer' offer, they're
> probably on smack.

Please read:

http://bcsaller.blogspot.com/2005/11/stop-energy-some-people-know-term-stop.html

And take your attempts at flaming elsewhere.

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      Alexander Limi · Chief Architect · Plone Solutions · Norway

  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
_____________________________________________________________________

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Simon Eisenmann Simon Eisenmann
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Re: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

In reply to this post by Alexander Limi
On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 16:15 -0800, Alexander Limi wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:05:43 -0800, Alan Milligan  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > We already do this and much more at https://linux.last-bastion.net.  So
> > far, nobody in the Plone community's shown much enthusiasm for package
> > managers at all.
>
> Because nobody is interested in switching to Random Distribution X when  
> they already have it installed and working.
>
> *plays the "don't let this thread be a packaging system discussion" card*
>
> I'm specifically asking for people with experience with autopackage.  
> Comments telling me that $DISTRO has a working package management system  
> with Plone doesn't help. ;)
>
How do you guys feel about a binary installer coming with all
dependencies (without libc and the linker)?


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alan runyan-2 alan runyan-2
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RE: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

> How do you guys feel about a binary installer coming with all
> dependencies (without libc and the linker)?

+1

As long as source code for plone and zope ship along




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Kapil Thangavelu-2 Kapil Thangavelu-2
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Re: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

alan runyan wrote:
>>How do you guys feel about a binary installer coming with all
>>dependencies (without libc and the linker)?
>
>
> +1
>
> As long as source code for plone and zope ship along
>

iff the application does not depend on non gpl compatible components in
the installer. else it violates imho, the gpl.

if the installer does contain non gpl components that plone depends on
or depend on plone, ie runtime importing of gpl code or derived code and
not mere aggregation, then i think its a problem. i realize several
companies here have talked to lawyers, who have convinced them that they
can make convincing legal arguments otherwise, however i find it
reprehensible that any company or developer should be forced to choose
between willful ignorance of the spirit of the GPL and its free software
principles and competing in the market space against those who do. if we
want to allow for this sort of distribution of plone, then we should
change the license to LGPL, which is exactly what it is, and a level
playing field for all, as opposed to creating a climate where only those
wishing to violate the spirit of the license, and the community
principles it represent, via hiring lawyers to circumvent it, are able
to mix in propretiary code with their binary distributions.

-kapil


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Kapil Thangavelu-2 Kapil Thangavelu-2
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Re: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

In reply to this post by Alan Milligan
alan,

i realize you invested in time and effort into bastion linux, and its
been tailor made for enterprise plone deployments. However, the
underlying issue is the same, plone targets many platforms, your
solution targets only a subset and imo the best solution for the problem
of package management, is incorporating it into the plone platform as a
service so that it works for all plone supported platforms. there are
several projects underway to achieve just that in the form of
distribution via python eggs and the basket product, and developer tools
like ben and geoff's skeletor tool. i'm not entirely convinced by
basket, since the version extant requires product modification and is
not compatible with cmf products, but regardless its the right place to
approach the problem such that the solution can benefit all plone users,
not just those on supported rpm distros paying for bastion linux. iotw,
your selling a service to a specific audience and platforms, thats
great, but there's really no point to getting aggro because everyone
isn't ready to jump on board it as the solution for plone and line your
coffers.

-kapil

Alan Milligan wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Since you asked, BastionLinux is distro-agnostic for any RPM-based
> distro.  It integrates with the auto-updating tools of both commercial
> Linux vendors.
>
> It is an amazingly time-consuming task to package and maintain the
> variable-quality stack that is necessary for an enterprise Plone deployment.
>
> It in fact only makes commercial sense, when ISV's recognise the
> economic benefits of a Plone SOE and get behind it.  Even Plone
> Foundation appears more interested in fund raising selling tee-shirts
> and beer mugs than attaching themselves to the revenue streams of such a
> proven and well-understood business model.
>
> Should anyone be contemplating your generous 'beer' offer, they're
> probably on smack.
>
> Alan
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFDe88dCfroLk4EZpkRAr3RAKCYnuFbKzbdCCgbgzcwwLTo55gMKACg2XEl
> e3K0e+MDMLy14ocxp1cGjtU=
> =dx2C
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the JBoss Inc.  Get Certified Today
> Register for a JBoss Training Course.  Free Certification Exam
> for All Training Attendees Through End of 2005. For more info visit:
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alan runyan alan runyan
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Re: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

I can only tell you that we would help push a packaging system if it
supported Windows.  I also think it should go into core plone so its
available everywhere.  For it to go into core plone it must work cross
platform.  good luck w/ all the packaging projects -- they all look great.
 I love the skeletor logo

alan



>
> i realize you invested in time and effort into bastion linux, and its
> been tailor made for enterprise plone deployments. However, the
> underlying issue is the same, plone targets many platforms, your
> solution targets only a subset and imo the best solution for the problem
> of package management, is incorporating it into the plone platform as a
> service so that it works for all plone supported platforms. there are
> several projects underway to achieve just that in the form of
> distribution via python eggs and the basket product, and developer tools
> like ben and geoff's skeletor tool. i'm not entirely convinced by
> basket, since the version extant requires product modification and is
> not compatible with cmf products, but regardless its the right place to
> approach the problem such that the solution can benefit all plone users,
> not just those on supported rpm distros paying for bastion linux. iotw,
> your selling a service to a specific audience and platforms, thats
> great, but there's really no point to getting aggro because everyone
> isn't ready to jump on board it as the solution for plone and line your
> coffers.
>
> -kapil
>
> Alan Milligan wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Since you asked, BastionLinux is distro-agnostic for any RPM-based
>> distro.  It integrates with the auto-updating tools of both commercial
>> Linux vendors.
>>
>> It is an amazingly time-consuming task to package and maintain the
>> variable-quality stack that is necessary for an enterprise Plone
>> deployment.
>>
>> It in fact only makes commercial sense, when ISV's recognise the
>> economic benefits of a Plone SOE and get behind it.  Even Plone
>> Foundation appears more interested in fund raising selling tee-shirts
>> and beer mugs than attaching themselves to the revenue streams of such a
>> proven and well-understood business model.
>>
>> Should anyone be contemplating your generous 'beer' offer, they're
>> probably on smack.
>>
>> Alan
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>>
>> iD8DBQFDe88dCfroLk4EZpkRAr3RAKCYnuFbKzbdCCgbgzcwwLTo55gMKACg2XEl
>> e3K0e+MDMLy14ocxp1cGjtU=
>> =dx2C
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the JBoss Inc.  Get Certified Today
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>
>
>
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Simon Eisenmann Simon Eisenmann
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Re: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

In reply to this post by Kapil Thangavelu-2
On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 14:32 -0800, Kapil Thangavelu wrote:

> alan runyan wrote:
> >>How do you guys feel about a binary installer coming with all
> >>dependencies (without libc and the linker)?
> >
> >
> > +1
> >
> > As long as source code for plone and zope ship along
> >
>
> iff the application does not depend on non gpl compatible components in
> the installer. else it violates imho, the gpl.
Hum .. what do you guys mean? Imho its not required to include the
source _inside_ the binary installer. Its just required to get the
source which is used to build the installer package (ie a seperate
source package).

Moreover there is no opensource way, to not include the source with a
zope product (as it is all python) (i am not talking about cheap .pyc
hacks). So .. does that not mean automatically that the source is always
included?

Of course shipping a binary installer has a couple of consequences:
 - you cannot compile anything with the python included
 - you have to setup a compatible build system to compile required
   python extensions
 - you cannot upgrade Zope (have to wait for the next installer release)
 - you cannot upgrade Python
   (have to wait for the next installer release)

Cheers,
Simon
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Alexander Limi Alexander Limi
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Re: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 03:37:08 -0800, Simon Eisenmann  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Of course shipping a binary installer has a couple of consequences:
>  - you cannot compile anything with the python included
>  - you have to setup a compatible build system to compile required
>    python extensions
>  - you cannot upgrade Zope (have to wait for the next installer release)
>  - you cannot upgrade Python
>    (have to wait for the next installer release)

This is an acceptable restriction as long as people are made aware of the  
consequences before installing.

Anyway, I assume this is a bit tangential, or does AutoPackage require  
that we ship things like this? (not familiar with AutoPackage yet :)

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  Consulting · Training · Development · http://www.plonesolutions.com
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alan runyan-2 alan runyan-2
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RE: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

In reply to this post by Simon Eisenmann
> > As long as source code for plone and zope ship along
> >
> > iff the application does not depend on non gpl compatible
> components
> > in the installer. else it violates imho, the gpl.

My translation of Kapil's quote is,

"""
The source code for all GPL components must be inside the binary installer.
i.e. CMFPlone must ship the .py files; not just .pyc files.  If there are
any other binary only things that _ARE_ GPL; lets pretend pyrex was GPL.
And we wanted to include it in the binary installer.  We would have the
binary version of pyrex AND the source code of pyrex in the binary
installer.  The fact that you can not use the source code to compile the
software *as-is* from the binary installer is irrelevent.  It is enough for
the source to ship with it.  This, I believe, is a requirement since we are
talking about distribution of GPL software.
"""

NOTE: As far as GPL is concerned.  Opinions are like assholes.  Please I
urge people NOT to chide in about the GPL.  Simon is a very smart guy and if
he *forgets* to ship the source in a binary installer; OH WELL.  He will not
forget the second time ;-)

> Hum .. what do you guys mean? Imho its not required to
> include the source _inside_ the binary installer. Its just
> required to get the source which is used to build the
> installer package (ie a seperate source package).

Its probably *not required* to include the source _inside_ the binary.
But if you did; it should would pre-empt a lot of compliants and nagging.

> Moreover there is no opensource way, to not include the
> source with a zope product (as it is all python) (i am not
> talking about cheap .pyc hacks). So .. does that not mean
> automatically that the source is always included?

Simon - your adding more information to confuse people.  The question and
answer is:

  - Q: Is shipping .py files enough for the source?  
  - A: Yes. _AND_ if there are any C binaries those too should be included
in the installer.

> Of course shipping a binary installer has a couple of consequences:
>  - you cannot compile anything with the python included
>  - you have to setup a compatible build system to compile required
>    python extensions
>  - you cannot upgrade Zope (have to wait for the next
> installer release)
>  - you cannot upgrade Python
>    (have to wait for the next installer release)

Simon,

I believe the above are *POSITIVES* not *NEGATIVES*.  The idea being that
you can ./install_plone and give it a directory + username/password and
voila; its all setup in a sandbox.  Does not interfer with anything.  Comes
*as is*.  Only bit twiddlers and more advance people will want to do
anything BUT use a bianry installer.  

If there would be an equivilent version of the windows installer for linux
-- that would be great.  A program that Just Work(s) would be BLOODY
BRILLIANT!  Please go for it!  Sounds awesome.

alan runyan




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Wichert Akkerman Wichert Akkerman
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Re: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

Previously alan runyan wrote:
> Its probably *not required* to include the source _inside_ the binary.
> But if you did; it should would pre-empt a lot of compliants and nagging.

Please see section 3 of the GPL which is very clear on this. Including
source code in a binary is not necessary and in fact almost nobody does
this.

Wichert.

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Kapil Thangavelu-2 Kapil Thangavelu-2
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Re: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

In reply to this post by Simon Eisenmann
Simon Eisenmann wrote:

> On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 14:32 -0800, Kapil Thangavelu wrote:
>
>>alan runyan wrote:
>>
>>>>How do you guys feel about a binary installer coming with all
>>>>dependencies (without libc and the linker)?
>>>
>>>
>>>+1
>>>
>>>As long as source code for plone and zope ship along
>>>
>>
>>iff the application does not depend on non gpl compatible components in
>>the installer. else it violates imho, the gpl.
>
>
> Hum .. what do you guys mean? Imho its not required to include the
> source _inside_ the binary installer. Its just required to get the
> source which is used to build the installer package (ie a seperate
> source package).

late to the thread.. i just finished moving.

as wichert says, the binary installer need not contain source, and
source need not be available for things bundled in the binary that
aren't linking with or derived from plone, which would fall under mere
aggregation. however in order to distribute it legally, all the parts
that are linking or dependent on or derived from plone, would need to be
available under a gpl compatible license with source availability. if
the source isn't in the installer, then it needs to freely available. my
comments were directed at those building products based on a non
standard definition of linking which ignores the FSF intrepretation, i
should have been more specific.

>
> Moreover there is no opensource way, to not include the source with a
> zope product (as it is all python) (i am not talking about cheap .pyc
> hacks). So .. does that not mean automatically that the source is always
> included?
>

yes, it does for products that are pure python, but also its important
to note the distinction that source included is different from a gpl
compatible license that the GPL requires for linked or derived products.

incidentally, there is an old unused (afaik) way to ship products in a
rotor crypted tgz format (with zexp support)..

cheers,

-kapil



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Simon Eisenmann Simon Eisenmann
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RE: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

In reply to this post by alan runyan-2
On Sun, 2005-11-20 at 10:38 -0600, alan runyan wrote:

> > Of course shipping a binary installer has a couple of consequences:
> >  - you cannot compile anything with the python included
> >  - you have to setup a compatible build system to compile required
> >    python extensions
> >  - you cannot upgrade Zope (have to wait for the next
> > installer release)
> >  - you cannot upgrade Python
> >    (have to wait for the next installer release)
>
> Simon,
>
> I believe the above are *POSITIVES* not *NEGATIVES*.  The idea being that
> you can ./install_plone and give it a directory + username/password and
> voila; its all setup in a sandbox.  Does not interfer with anything.  Comes
> *as is*.  Only bit twiddlers and more advance people will want to do
> anything BUT use a bianry installer.  
>
Yeah i absolutely agree personally. But this is totally different from
the current recommended way to get plone running on nix .. or how does
the joe average linux administrator get a plone system running?

> If there would be an equivilent version of the windows installer for linux
> -- that would be great.  A program that Just Work(s) would be BLOODY
> BRILLIANT!  Please go for it!  Sounds awesome.

But .. i am not sure about instances. Imho this installer should just
create the software home. Creating one or multiple instances should be a
separate step. Opinions?

Cheers,
Simon
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smime.p7s (5K) Download Attachment
J Cameron Cooper-2 J Cameron Cooper-2
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Re: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

Simon Eisenmann wrote:

> On Sun, 2005-11-20 at 10:38 -0600, alan runyan wrote:
>
>>>Of course shipping a binary installer has a couple of consequences:
>>> - you cannot compile anything with the python included
>>> - you have to setup a compatible build system to compile required
>>>   python extensions
>>> - you cannot upgrade Zope (have to wait for the next
>>>installer release)
>>> - you cannot upgrade Python
>>>   (have to wait for the next installer release)
>>
>>Simon,
>>
>>I believe the above are *POSITIVES* not *NEGATIVES*.  The idea being that
>>you can ./install_plone and give it a directory + username/password and
>>voila; its all setup in a sandbox.  Does not interfer with anything.  Comes
>>*as is*.  Only bit twiddlers and more advance people will want to do
>>anything BUT use a bianry installer.  
>
> Yeah i absolutely agree personally. But this is totally different from
> the current recommended way to get plone running on nix .. or how does
> the joe average linux administrator get a plone system running?

"Currently recommended" also happens to equal "only", except for
distro-packages (which are only disrecommended when they are screwed up
or do non-standard things which raise the burden of support).

There is no fundamental problem with an installer for Linux other than
that it doesn't exist.

>>If there would be an equivilent version of the windows installer for linux
>>-- that would be great.  A program that Just Work(s) would be BLOODY
>>BRILLIANT!  Please go for it!  Sounds awesome.
>
> But .. i am not sure about instances. Imho this installer should just
> create the software home. Creating one or multiple instances should be a
> separate step. Opinions?

An installer that doesn't finish with runnable software is broken. And
Zope without an instance home is certainly not runnable.

If no instances are set up, we must then document

  a) creation of instances
  b) creating Plone Sites in the ZMI

I do not want to guess how many people would never find, not read, or
not understand these steps and thus conclude that the software is broken.

                --jcc
--
"Building Websites with Plone"
http://plonebook.packtpub.com


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Alexander Limi Alexander Limi
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Re: Re: Anybody with autopackage experience?

On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:58:49 -0800, J Cameron Cooper  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> An installer that doesn't finish with runnable software is broken. And
> Zope without an instance home is certainly not runnable.

Yes, it obviously has to create a default instance if one doesn't already  
exist. It should work like the other installers.

--
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